vsh - form your own opinion

[B+.]

That is to prevent intervention affecting the significance of your findings, not the “leave them to deal with Varroa as a species or die out” approach.

Of course not. None of us want honeybees to die out completely. We want those that can compete with varroa to survive.

 

[colinc]

But as a research colony if you intervene you remove them from the study. Whereas if a general keeper left them to their own devices that colony would die.
All I am saying is humans don’t generally grasp the timescales involved in evolution and use it as a term when they mean (human) selection.


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[ANMAW]

But as a research colony if you intervene you remove them from the study. Whereas if a general keeper left them to their own devices that colony would die.
All I am saying is humans don’t generally grasp the timescales involved in evolution and use it as a term when they mean (human) selection.

Tom Seeley reckons wild bees living in trees in the forests of upstate New York have, through natural selection, developed resistance/toloerance and the populations levels have returned to pre-varroa levels. He gave an interesting talk on it at the National Honey Show which you can find on YouTube.

 

[B+.]

Tom Seeley reckons wild bees living in trees in the forests of upstate New York have, through natural selection, developed resistance/toloerance and the populations levels have returned to pre-varroa levels. He gave an interesting talk on it at the National Honey Show which you can find on YouTube.

I think one thing that is frequently overlooked is the action of drones that mate with virgin queens.
America has had VSH for quite a while so it is safe to assume it is quite widely available. Virgin queens, therefore, mate in an environment which contains a large number of drones carrying VSH genes. This is likely to have an effect.

 

[mbc]

I think one thing that is frequently overlooked is the action of drones that mate with virgin queens.
America has had VSH for quite a while so it is safe to assume it is quite widely available. Virgin queens, therefore, mate in an environment which contains a large number of drones carrying VSH genes. This is likely to have an effect.

Those arnot forest bees are isolated plus they were almost wiped out before recovery.
Makes an argument for avoiding continually mixing up the gene pool rather than bringing in new genetics. Mind you, by all accounts those arnot bees would be next to hopeless for honey production purposes.

 

[Finman]

Those arnot forest bees are isolated plus they were almost wiped out before recovery.
Makes an argument for avoiding continually mixing up the gene pool rather than bringing in new genetics. Mind you, by all accounts those arnot bees would be next to hopeless for honey production purposes.

There are those natural populations, which stay alive. But the colony size is so small, that they are not suitable to honey production.

What I have read about those "self living colonies", typical winter cluster is 3-4 frames. They do not survive over winter in Finland, and they build up is so slow, that I get no honey from such hives.

in Gotland they brought there 150 colonies to isle. Now 30-40 are alive and typical winter cluster is 3 frames. Just like in Russian bee has.


May 2016, Volume 47, Issue 3, pp 467–482 | Cite as
Natural Varroa mite-surviving Apis mellifera honeybee populations
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0412-8


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[Michael Palmer]

Tom Seeley reckons wild bees living in trees in the forests of upstate New York have, through natural selection, developed resistance/toloerance and the populations levels have returned to pre-varroa levels. He gave an interesting talk on it at the National Honey Show which you can find on YouTube.

Not sure if Tom has changed his mind, but his study showed that locating colonies at distance is the mode of resistance in the bees of the Arnot forest.

 

[Finman]

resistance in the bees of the Arnot forest.

Today, there are an estimated 18 colonies living in the forest from a census performed in 2011 (Seeley et al. 2015). Having access to the Arnot Forest bees in movable frame hives is a main goal to enable investigations on both bee and mite characteristics that support the continued survival of this population without mite control.

( No mention about annual death rate. )

18 is very small genepool.

.

 

[Anduril]

Today, there are an estimated 18 colonies living in the forest from a census performed in 2011 (Seeley et al. 2015). Having access to the Arnot Forest bees in movable frame hives is a main goal to enable investigations on both bee and mite characteristics that support the continued survival of this population without mite control.

( No mention about annual death rate. )

18 is very small genepool.

.

Proverb:
Mighty oaks from little acorns grow

 

[Beefriendly]

Today, there are an estimated 18 colonies living in the forest f
.

Perhaps so few because he chainsawed all their nests (trees) in an earlier experiment?

 

[Fusion_power]

Not sure if Tom has changed his mind, but his study showed that locating colonies at distance is the mode of resistance in the bees of the Arnot forest.

A different way of stating this is that horizontal mite transfer, especially when a hive collapses and is robbed, overwhelms the colonies that rob out the mite bomb. The resistance mechanisms currently known are relatively small effect traits. Also worth noting is that Tom's work showed relatively few colonies with long term survival. They reproduce by frequent swarming such that the total number of colonies is relatively stable.

The results from South Africa suggest the best path forward is to let the susceptible bees die. This is a bitter pill for most beekeepers to swallow.

 

[Beefriendly]

Be interesting to see FP what would happen to your honey yields if you treated some of your colonies for varroa and compared with your untreated?
The question being is VSH energetically expensive?
The French Avignon wild varroa tolerant bees honey harvest almost doubled on the colonies that were treated.
Just curious...

 

[Finman]

let it be

 

[Finman]

The results from South Africa suggest the best path forward is to let the susceptible bees die. This is a bitter pill for most beekeepers to swallow.

Mite treatment knowledge from South Africa!

Universities of USA recommend strongly that hives should be treated against varroa. But "do nothing" is the hobby favorite trend. There are now campaigns that beekeepers are more carefull.

What does Scutellata bee, when varroa load is too heavy? It leaves the brood and moves to the new home.

And about Scutellata farming in America. Where scutellata exists, hobby beekeeping has almost stopped.

 

[B+.]

The question being is VSH energetically expensive?
The French Avignon wild varroa tolerant bees honey harvest almost doubled on the colonies that were treated.
Just curious...

You seem to be arguing in favour of treatment. Isn't this a backward step?

I'm not aware of any studies that quantify a "cost" associated with the VSH trait. I would have thought the health benefit gained by not having to suffer effects of varroa would translate to a gain rather than a loss. There would obviously be some loss in terms of sacrificed pupae in a VSH colony, but, there would also be a loss to the colony in terms of the shortened lives and crippled wings of workers in a non-VSH colony.

 

[Finman]

You seem to be arguing in favour of treatment. Isn't this a backward step?

.

Treatment is very necessary. Vain to argue about it.

To keep hives healthy is backward step? Not keep merely alive.
.

 

[Fusion_power]

Treatment is very necessary. Vain to argue about it.

And therein lies the dichotomy beekeepers face. Until proven varroa resistant bees that also have proven production potential are available, most beekeepers are like finman.

Riddle me this finman, who will develop varroa resistant bees if nobody wants to keep bees without treatment unless they are first proven varroa resistant?

 

[Finman]

And therein lies the dichotomy beekeepers face. Until proven varroa resistant bees that also have proven production potential are available, most beekeepers are like finman.

Riddle me this finman, who will develop varroa resistant bees if nobody wants to keep bees without treatment unless they are first proven varroa resistant?

Slow now, you engineer.


If you develop something in industry, do not mix your experiments on normal production.

You must first develop that new thing better than old system, otherwise you ruin your products and customers abandon you.


Do not teach duck to swim.


Mite resistant bees are far from practical.


And the price of Queen. 500 €. ... The most expencive treatment system and it does not even work.

 

[Beefriendly]

You seem to be arguing in favour of treatment. Isn't this a backward step?

I'm not aware of any studies that quantify a "cost" associated with the VSH trait. I would have thought the health benefit gained by not having to suffer effects of varroa would translate to a gain rather than a loss. T

I'm interested whether treatment free bees are energetically compromised when it come to honey yields. The decision to treat is not mine to make.
You should be aware of the Avignon bees which show exactly this, although VSH may not be the reason they tolerate varroa..
Abstract from paper.
We document the ability of a population of honey bee colonies to survive in France without Varroa suppression measures. We compared the mortality of collected Varroa surviving bee (VSB) stock with that of miticide-treated Varroa-susceptible colonies. Varroa infestation did not induce mortality in
the VSB colonies. Some of the original colonies survived more than 11 years without treatment and the average survival of the experimental colonies was 6.54 ± 0.25 years. Swarming was variable (41.50 ± 9.94%) depending on the year. Honey production was significantly higher (1.7 times) in treated than in VSB colonies. For the first time since Varroa invaded France, our results provide evidence that untreated local honey bee colonies can survive the mite, which may be the basis for integrated Varroa management.

 

[For want of a better word]

I'm interested whether treatment free bees are energetically compromised when it come to honey yields. The decision to treat is not mine to make.
You should be aware of the Avignon bees which show exactly this, although VSH may not be the reason they tolerate varroa..
Abstract from paper.
We document the ability of a population of honey bee colonies to survive in France without Varroa suppression measures. We compared the mortality of collected Varroa surviving bee (VSB) stock with that of miticide-treated Varroa-susceptible colonies. Varroa infestation did not induce mortality in
the VSB colonies. Some of the original colonies survived more than 11 years without treatment and the average survival of the experimental colonies was 6.54 ± 0.25 years. Swarming was variable (41.50 ± 9.94%) depending on the year. Honey production was significantly higher (1.7 times) in treated than in VSB colonies. For the first time since Varroa invaded France, our results provide evidence that untreated local honey bee colonies can survive the mite, which may be the basis for integrated Varroa management.

Local.... Local.... Local

Seems to be sinking in!

{ presuming Rhubarb is not considered as a "treatment"??}

Yeghes da