vsh - form your own opinion

[Fusion_power]

Not a reflection on the thread more on the forum and it’s inhabitants.

Do you mean "denizens"? Semantics is what turns a piece of half raw castrated bull meat into a sizzling hot juicy rib-eye steak.

Most of us are here because we are interested in beekeeping. I'll maintain my interest and hopefully avoid cabin fever.

Back to topic. VSH, of which my opinion is that it has a place but it is not the only game in town.

 

[colinc]

In the U.K. denizens is more used as foreigners who live here with some rights. Synonymous with inhabitant just slightly different usage.
I realise my comment calling out the original comment that was worded like troll bait has lead us way off topic and I won’t be adding any more. Apologies to the OP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[PBee]

This paper looks like it may vindicate the simple maternal selection/culling method in the context of local cooperation or some degree of isolation. Starting point was very aggressive AHB, 12 years later (with just the selection pressure of destruction of nests) a gentle AHB that retained its varroa resistance.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-01800-0

 

[domino]

I don't care how people keep their bees, I disagree with the notion that beekeepers are reluctant to change or move away from treatments.

What is lacking is a clearly articulated method how to manage hive health without using treatments. The loudest voices in that move appear to be promoting the let them die until things get better approach.

If you're a hobby beekeeper with six hives the suggestion that you just let them all die until one makes it through the winter isn't a very attractive pitch.

 

[B+.]

What is lacking is a clearly articulated method how to manage hive health without using treatments. The loudest voices in that move appear to be promoting the let them die until things get better approach.

If you're a hobby beekeeper with six hives the suggestion that you just let them all die until one makes it through the winter isn't a very attractive pitch.

"If you keep on doing what you always did, you'll always get what you always got."
If you have bees that are susceptible to a problem, it is irrational to believe that they will be able to deal with it without help. The approach I took was to adopt bees that were able to deal with the problem better than others. I continue to breed them for even more tolerance. To me, that is a rational approach.
If you're a hobby beekeeper with six hives, you can either treat them in some way or adopt bees with more tolerance (this may still involve some treatment but you're improving the chance of tolerant genes being passed on)

 

[drex]

I follow B+ method, but not to the degree he is now breeding at. I select queens whose colonies have a forced low drop ( say after an OA vape), all other things being equal like colony strength, and graft from these. Easy enough for the hobby beekeeper to do.

 

[B+.]

I select queens whose colonies have a forced low drop ( say after an OA vape)

How do you know whether the low mite count is due to their behavior (which may be heritable) or due to your intervention?

 

[domino]

"If you keep on doing what you always did, you'll always get what you always got."
If you have bees that are susceptible to a problem, it is irrational to believe that they will be able to deal with it without help. The approach I took was to adopt bees that were able to deal with the problem better than others. I continue to breed them for even more tolerance. To me, that is a rational approach.
If you're a hobby beekeeper with six hives, you can either treat them in some way or adopt bees with more tolerance (this may still involve some treatment but you're improving the chance of tolerant genes being passed on)

Maybe starting developing a culture of treating just enough by better monitoring and treating when required rather by calendar dates would be a more effective way to start.

 

[domino]

How do you know whether the low mite count is due to their behavior (which may be heritable) or due to your intervention?

How do you know the low mite count isn't a result of avirulence rather than the bees?

 

[drex]

The intention of the "intervention" is to monitor the varroa load as much as any treatment. If I were to vape all my colonies, and one showed an exceedingly low drop compared to the others, that would suggest to me that those bees are better at managing varroa ( all other things being equal). How do you know any trait is hereditable apart from to select for it and see if it appears in the following generations?

 

[colinc]

This is where humans fall down. We like to think we are speeding up evolution by selective breeding when in fact you are selecting for variance. The traits we are hunting to improve things within a human lifetime are traits that are already there and selection just enforces them within a population so that a higher percentage have them.
So my point is selective breeding for VSH other hygenic traits is the hunt for behaviours that already exist, not blind hope for a new process of bee hygiene.
People use dogs as examples but dog breeding is an exception because in a lifetime you can create a breed if you are lucky due to high heritability of the genes controlling a dogs appearance.

In evolutionary terms changes happen over millennia and are similar to yellow bees becoming blue. An evolved species is unlikely to be able to breed with its ancestral line if it still exists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[B+.]

The intention of the "intervention" is to monitor the varroa load as much as any treatment. If I were to vape all my colonies, and one showed an exceedingly low drop compared to the others, that would suggest to me that those bees are better at managing varroa ( all other things being equal). How do you know any trait is hereditable apart from to select for it and see if it appears in the following generations?

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. My question was aimed at the results of the OA vape. If you had a light drop, you might conclude that they were handling varroa well. If you had a heavy drop, you would conclude that they had a lot of phoretic mites. However, in both cases, you had intervened in the growth of the mite population and any further results would be impacted by your intervention
On the subject of heritability, figures have been produced from past trials so you can have an expected value. This is the mean of the breeding values for the 2a (dam) and 4a (sire). Of course, there will always be variance from an expected value so, yes, you have to select and test for this in the progeny. It's a cyclic process.

 

[B+.]

This is where humans fall down. We like to think we are speeding up evolution by selective breeding when in fact you are selecting for variance. The traits we are hunting to improve things within a human lifetime are traits that are already there and selection just enforces them within a population so that a higher percentage have them.
So my point is selective breeding for VSH other hygenic traits is the hunt for behaviours that already exist, not blind hope for a new process of bee hygiene.
People use dogs as examples but dog breeding is an exception because in a lifetime you can create a breed if you are lucky due to high heritability of the genes controlling a dogs appearance.

In evolutionary terms changes happen over millennia and are similar to yellow bees becoming blue. An evolved species is unlikely to be able to breed with its ancestral line if it still exists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'm not sure I've understood you correctly so, forgive me if I've misunderstood you.
Yes. The traits are there, but, they're usually expressed at a very low level. We use controlled mating to increase the expression so that it appears at higher levels and more frequently in the population. We select those that express the trait at higher levels for further propagation and, generation after generation, increase the level that the trait is expressed at.
One of the factors that influences the rate at which we can develop a trait is the time it takes to move from one generation to the next. We call this the selection intensity. With honeybees, we usually test one generation per year when testing for the full range of traits, but, for traits like VSH, it is possible to test 3 generations in a year (but that's pushing it a bit). Other creatures take longer than honeybees to mature though (e.g. cows) so it would take several years to test a single generation.
The way we currently test for VSH is to take colonies that already score highly for hygienic behaviour and subject them (and their progeny) to different tests to improve the level that they express the VSH trait.
I don't mean to make this sound simple or straightforward. It involves a lot of work, but, using techniques like single-drone insemination (sdi), it is possible to develop VSH quicker than it might otherwise take (if indeed it ever did appear) in an uncontrolled mating system.

 

[Millet]

I'm not sure I've understood you correctly so, forgive me if I've misunderstood you.
Yes. The traits are there, but, they're usually expressed at a very low level. We use controlled mating to increase the expression so that it appears at higher levels and more frequently in the population. We select those that express the trait at higher levels for further propagation and, generation after generation, increase the level that the trait is expressed at.
One of the factors that influences the rate at which we can develop a trait is the time it takes to move from one generation to the next. We call this the selection intensity. With honeybees, we usually test one generation per year when testing for the full range of traits, but, for traits like VSH, it is possible to test 3 generations in a year (but that's pushing it a bit). Other creatures take longer than honeybees to mature though (e.g. cows) so it would take several years to test a single generation.
The way we currently test for VSH is to take colonies that already score highly for hygienic behaviour and subject them (and their progeny) to different tests to improve the level that they express the VSH trait.
I don't mean to make this sound simple or straightforward. It involves a lot of work, but, using techniques like single-drone insemination (sdi), it is possible to develop VSH quicker than it might otherwise take (if indeed it ever did appear) in an uncontrolled mating system.

You learn something new everyday, i never knew cows had Varroa..

 

[B+.]

You learn something new everyday, i never knew cows had Varroa..

You should see them...big things the size of footballs!

 

[colinc]

I'm not sure I've understood you correctly so, forgive me if I've misunderstood you.

Yes. The traits are there, but, they're usually expressed at a very low level. We use controlled mating to increase the expression so that it appears at higher levels and more frequently in the population. We select those that express the trait at higher levels for further propagation and, generation after generation, increase the level that the trait is expressed at.

One of the factors that influences the rate at which we can develop a trait is the time it takes to move from one generation to the next. We call this the selection intensity. With honeybees, we usually test one generation per year when testing for the full range of traits, but, for traits like VSH, it is possible to test 3 generations in a year (but that's pushing it a bit). Other creatures take longer than honeybees to mature though (e.g. cows) so it would take several years to test a single generation.

The way we currently test for VSH is to take colonies that already score highly for hygienic behaviour and subject them (and their progeny) to different tests to improve the level that they express the VSH trait.

I don't mean to make this sound simple or straightforward. It involves a lot of work, but, using techniques like single-drone insemination (sdi), it is possible to develop VSH quicker than it might otherwise take (if indeed it ever did appear) in an uncontrolled mating system.

Wasn’t aimed at you. I know you know what you are talking about, but the leave them to deal with something so they survive or die comments are regular. Evolve or die applied by any human instigated change will always result in death if we are expecting an evolutionary leap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Millet]

You should see them...big things the size of footballs!

A bit like a Chinese Wok

 

[colinc]

A bit like a Chinese Wok

Your thinking horseshoe crab, Varroa don’t have a tail


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[B+.]

Wasn’t aimed at you. I know you know what you are talking about, but the leave them to deal with something so they survive or die comments are regular. Evolve or die applied by any human instigated change will always result in death if we are expecting an evolutionary leap.

Part of the process involves the "Bond" (Live and let die) approach to testing.
In the breeding group I'm in, we don't treat potential breeder queens. They have to survive without treatment with a high overwintering index (ratio of spring population to autumn population). This is to prove they can survive without treatment.

 

[colinc]

Part of the process involves the "Bond" (Live and let die) approach to testing.

In the breeding group I'm in, we don't treat potential breeder queens. They have to survive without treatment with a high overwintering index (ratio of spring population to autumn population). This is to prove they can survive without treatment.

That is to prevent intervention affecting the significance of your findings, not the “leave them to deal with Varroa as a species or die out” approach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro