Queen Breeding Pedigree

[B+.]

Enlighten me, being as you think I know nothing.

Your own words

 

[wightbees]

Is there a defined code for say, colour/ aggressive behaviour so on , or do I make my own up ?

 

[B+.]

Is there a defined code for say, colour/ aggressive behaviour so on , or do I make my own up ?

Absolutely. The traditional way is through morphometric analysis (http://coloss.org/beebook/I/subspecies-ecotypes/3/1). There is a much better explanation in "Selektion der Honigbiene" (http://fmraster.de/?product=selektion-bei-der-honigbiene) but this is written in German. The phenotypical assessment is explained here (http://www.coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing/3).
I could explain about the stock assessment records and studbook if you're interested

 

[Finman]

Prof. Ruttner makes the distinction between economic value, which is a transient thing, and breeding value which is heritable (Breeding techniques and selection for breeding of the honeybee). He goes on to say "A performance that will not be inherited is without significance for the breeder.

What then, when professor does not understand, what are the components of good yield. It is rare, that these things are discussed about.

Australians have made researching, how to optimize the yield from the view point of beekeeper. Others optimize the yield from the view of plant's pollination

I have spent 25 years to understand, what are good pastures. Last summer I realized one important thing: The bigger the rape fields, the smaller the yields. An amazing story.

 

[Eyeman]

Finman posted

The bigger the rape fields, the smaller the yields. An amazing story.

Your corollary has been well known for years. Take a look that great film Personal services, about Cynthia Payne and note Julie Walters quote BCSD.

 

[B+.]

What then, when professor does not understand, what are the components of good yield. It is rare, that these things are discussed about.

I think you're missing the point Finman. Performance in a single year does nothing for stock improvement. This is a gradual thing, year-by-year selecting and improving a range of characteristics from within a population.

 

[Finman]

I think you're missing the point Finman. Performance in a single year does nothing for stock improvement. This is a gradual thing, year-by-year selecting and improving a range of characteristics from within a population.

I have a degree is genetics, but I know nothing about breeding.

Mere missing points...

Every year means something, and exeptional years seems to teach the most.

When I speak about performance, it means 30 y experiences. Not single year.

.

 

[Finman]

Finman posted

Your corollary has been well known for years. Take a look that great film .

I have never noticed any mentionings.

Can you explain the phenomenom about big fields?

 

[JEP]

I'm a big believer in the importance of selective breeding in beekeeping, I come from a scientific (genetics degree) background. I have been bee breeding for a lot of years, selling plenty of bees along the way.

However you soon reach a point of diminishing returns with selection which I suspect you are already at B+ (your bees sound very good to me anyway). You could spend the rest of your life further improving the genetics of the bees you keep and basically get sod all extra honey for your efforts.

Alternatively you could get your nail gun out, build 100 hives in a couple of weeks and hey presto - your production a year or two later has gone up significantly. Or as Finman would point out, you could spend more time searching for better pastures - again an instant increase of productivity.

Productivity in beekeeping comes from paying attention to everything, not becoming obsessed with a single aspect of beekeeping i.e. bee breeding or hive insulation etc.

 

[Finman]

.
1994 I got average yield 130 kg. I was very proud about the yield and about my Carniolans.

I spoke about the yield to an old fart, and he told that he got the same yield.
I asked what kind of bees he has?
He told that some mongrels, he has not changed queens during last 10 years. They renew queens themselves. He lived 15 km from me.

It was one prove that good weathers and same kind of pastures give the yield.

 

[Finman]

Productivity in beekeeping comes from paying attention to everything....

That is the core. And then is a huge amount of wisdom and tricks, which have no meaning in final results.
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[B+.]

you soon reach a point of diminishing returns with selection which I suspect you are already at B+ (your bees sound very good to me anyway). You could spend the rest of your life further improving the genetics of the bees you keep and basically get sod all extra honey for your efforts.

This is true. A beekeeper working alone would soon encounter inbreeding problems unless he managed a lot of colonies. However, I am not working alone. If you look at the pdf of queen 44 which I attached to post #2, you will see the inbreeding coefficient for the queen is 0.2% and 0.8% for the workers. That's pretty low.

 

[wightbees]

Thanks for those links B+ I'll look through those first as I'm not the quickest reader : (

 

[B+.]

Is there a defined code for say, colour/ aggressive behaviour so on , or do I make my own up ?

I've attached the chart for drone colour (according to Goetze) - my scanner didn't do it justice though. The original is in the appendix to "Selektion der Honigbiene".
You might also find the Herold fan useful if you want to do wing vein morphometry

 

[Hunajavelho]

.
To me evaluating pastures is the biggest challenge every year in beekeeping.
.

Finman you do buy queens from a queen supplier who take interest in these things, so you do not only depend on good pastures. You preach to buy queens from queen breeders rather than rear own mongrels, you preach the cost of a good queen will return in honey.

Conclusion; good queen and good pastures!

 

[Finman]

Finman you do buy queens from a queen supplier who take interest in these things, so you do not only depend on good pastures. You preach to buy queens from queen breeders rather than rear own mongrels, you preach the cost of a good queen will return in honey.

Conclusion; good queen and good pastures!

You can buy good queens but good pastures you cannot buy. You must find them yourself.

Good queens I realized in 1967, when first Caucasian Queen brought more honey than 5 mongrel black bee hives.


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[B+.]

You can buy good queens but good pastures you cannot buy. You must find them yourself.
.

While I agree that the best performance will come from using the best stock in the best environment, I don't understand how you know they're "good" queens without some sort of consistent, reliable measure.

 

[Finman]

While I agree that the best performance will come from using the best stock in the best environment, I don't understand how you know they're "good" queens without some sort of consistent, reliable measure.

How I know ? With my 54 y experience. The measure is how many boxes the colony occupies.

Good queens must make 2 langstroth boxes brood. It is simple.

I rely on my skills. I have nothing else to use in this Job. No one else come to give to me scores.

Beekeeping is not so difficult after all.

One way to measure my hives is that I buy every year couple of new queens and I compare their quality to my older hives: Disease tolerancy, laying capacity, swarming, calmness, visually hybrid or pure, wintering


PS: i have very food knowledge about honey plants and pasture evaluation. And I do not mix fantasy in it, because bees cannot forage from fairytales.
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[B+.]

How I know ?
One way to measure my hives is that I buy every year couple of new queens and I compare their quality to my older hives: Disease tolerancy, laying capacity, swarming, calmness, visually hybrid or pure, wintering
.

This is after-the-event justification Finman. It doesn't provide any predictive capability. Thats what I like about the breeding values: I have somethng to base my expectations on - even though some members of the group will over/under perform. I can cope with that. Its biology after all.
I have no doubt that you know a great deal about the forage available in your country. It is important that good colonies aren't held back by the lack of forage and can fulfill their genetic capability. You will hear no argument from me on that.
I guess the only difference is that I put a lot of effort into testing so I am looking for something a bit more quantifiable before I do that.

 

[Finman]

I guess the only difference is that I put a lot of effort into testing so I am looking for something a bit more quantifiable before I do that.

I have a university education on biological researching and degree on genetics. That is why I do not breed my own stocks. And I have seen several time how it will end into inbreeding problems. I trust on high quality beekeepers, and I buy ready bred queens.

Only what means to me is good yields. I get incomes from that to cover my hobby costs.
Yield is the sum of bees quality, pastures and my skills.

I know, that even if the beekeeper has 1000 hives, queens are not allways good. But they will not allways be superior. They may be what ever.. Bad queens is not end of the world.

Like I have said, if I have now 25 hives, it is NOT possible to rear own bee strain. I rear 80% of my queens, and that's it. I renew every year my queens that they lay maximum amount of brood. I do not need pedigree or tests.

I have totally different strategy in beekeeping.

I have told, that I have now queens from 1500 hives owner, and I am satisfied to them, so far. Future brings then what it brings. I like surprises.
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