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What really bemuses me about "happy beekeepers" is they are mostly new to the game, they dont usually stay in the game for very long, and yet, while they are in the game they know whats best for the bees more than people who have been keeping bees long before they ever thought it might be a good idea, and in all likelyhood will be keeping bees long after they've moved onto the next trendy "green wash", furthermore, while the "happy beekeeper" does have bees, they keep them in a far more "eco" way !
Grow up !

Don't be bemused, it's just your imagination.

As for "grow up", some may consider that a childish comment at best.

Chris
 
at best - there is also a lamentable lack of comprehension of the English language - "greenwash" - "The dissemination of misleading information by an organization to conceal its abuse of the environment in order to present a positive public image" - in the context in which it was used it was nonsensical - Bayer is guilty of lots of "greenwash", it's about the last thing you could accuse the average (more) natural beekeeper of doing.......
 
Let the Natural beekeepers be!
If someone wants to keep bees "au natturalle "... no problem !
I don't worry too much if they want to do it naked/ barefoot/ the greenway or whatever.

However I do find it a bit aggravating when there have been some relatively serious programs broadcast about serious beekeeping on TV ...... people latch onto the one wacky wierdo transmissions and think that I keep my bees like that!

QED
 
However I do find it a bit aggravating when there have been some relatively serious programs broadcast about serious beekeeping on TV ...... people latch onto the one wacky wierdo transmissions and think that I keep my bees like that!

You just don't get it do you?

It's not weird, it is serious and it's just as successful - just different to you but it seems that bothers you and many others that still insist on being overtly rude - something I doubt you would do face to face.

Chris
 
Goodness gracious, is there no end to this ? It's pretty clear to me that using the word 'natural' in beekeeping circles is like waving a red rag at a bull. I picked my previous words carefully in order not to criticise or alienate 'conventional' beekeepers as I believe that most of you share a common love of the bees and you do what you do in their best interests. Indeed, I was at pains to suggest that there are beeks on the 'more natural' side of beekeeping that are equally bigotted. Yet you still come back with very disparaging remarks that are wholly unacceptable.

I don't believe that 'unconventional' - is that a better word ? beeks are any more 'holier than thou' than some conventional beekeepers, there are extremists on both sides of beekeeping - indeed, I don't even like to think of it as 'two sides' - it's beekeeping with different styles. All I was trying to say was that it is counter productive to be close minded (on either side of the divide) - the fact is that you do have to spend a great deal of money, time and effort on monitoring and 'treating' bees for Varroa etc. and if there is a less invasive way of making bees healthier and productive then surely we should all be considering it ? The only people discouraging alternative ways should be the pharmaceutical and beekeeping supply firms that stand to lose a fortune if they can no longer sell their 'essential' beekeeping products.

Do people feel so threatened that they need to brand all 'natural' (oh - sh..t there's that word again !) as johnny-come-latelys who will give up at the first sting ? I know several people who started beekeeping with National Hives and conventional methods who didn't last two seasons .... I think, mainly, as a result of not knowing enough BEFORE they started out and the complexity and time involved in trying to combat the threat of disease, parasites, weather, feeding etc. and then, after all this effort, still see a colony diminish, die or leave. Not continuing with beekeeping is certainly not a phenomena that's found only on the 'more natural' side of the fence. Indeed, I think, if you looked at any enterprise or hobby there are always going to be those poeple who carry on and enjoy it and those who realise it is not for them and pack up, the 80/20 rule probably applies to this as well as everything else.

I've joined my local association and signed up for a course in January - I hope to learn from ALL the experience that there is within my local beekeeping community - regardless of how they keep their bees. I don't have an issue with cow dung hives - I doubt that I would have one myself - but I respect alternative ideas and view their results with interest. Equally, I believe that the experience and knowledge of ALL longstanding beekeepers is an immense resource that should be treasured and leveraged so that we can all learn from one another.

Anyway, we really must stop these gross generalisations, sweeping statements and the attitude that only one way is best - and more importantly curb the enthusiasm for rudeness, cynicism and ridicule. We could debate on the basis of facts (and agree to disagree) as there is clearly a huge interest - just look at the number of views these three threads have gathered over the last few days !! I'm sure it's not all just JB fans having a peek ...

But let's get rid of the slanging match and get professional about discussing the issues - it's not nice the way this has been going.

I don't think I'm going to fuel this thread any more - perhaps a new thread should be started with the first debate being what we are going to rename so called 'natural' beekeepers that won't antagonise those 'conventional' beekeepers who react so badly to any suggestion that there is another way or disparage those beekeepers who seek to keep bees in a less conventional manner.... and I think all beekeepers should be happy beekeepers so we can discount that one for starters !

Phil
 
A raw nerve has been found on both sides of the jaw indeed !

Face to face ???... OH YES I HAVE... I got a proper wigging from one "conventional beekeeper" for even mentioning I was going to keep bees in a skep as an experiment in entomological archaeology!

As it happened the kind of bees I had at that time did not take kindly to my plans and absconded to a polly National !
 
nowt wrong with keeping bees in a skep, I know one NDB chap who keeps one in a bole as a 'curiosity'
 
nowt wrong with keeping bees in a skep, I know one NDB chap who keeps one in a bole as a 'curiosity'

:iagree:

certainly would be a curiosity...... if it were not for varroa I believe there would be many more doing just that

( NOT going to mention Varrox or Vaposier or oxallic acid !)
 
Don't be bemused, it's just your imagination.

As for "grow up", some may consider that a childish comment at best.

Chris

Not my imagination at all but from personal experience, and as for "grow up", you might be right and "get real" would have been more appropriate.
I fully acknowledge I've tarred all "natural" beekeepers with the same brush in my earlier post, and I apologize to any who fall outside of the sweeping generalisation, but there was something in o90's post, and HH's perceived arrogance that prompted me to post what I did.
Essentially, the luxury of "natural" anything is the preserve of a privileged few, at heart I'm sure we'd all like to be hunter gatherers but for most we just dont have the liberty of loads of time and space to do things "naturally" but we still have to eat.
 
Not my imagination at all but from personal experience, and as for "grow up", you might be right and "get real" would have been more appropriate.
I fully acknowledge I've tarred all "natural" beekeepers with the same brush in my earlier post, and I apologize to any who fall outside of the sweeping generalisation, but there was something in o90's post, and HH's perceived arrogance that prompted me to post what I did.
Essentially, the luxury of "natural" anything is the preserve of a privileged few, at heart I'm sure we'd all like to be hunter gatherers but for most we just dont have the liberty of loads of time and space to do things "naturally" but we still have to eat.
All this reminds me of the saying "There are none so pious as the recently converted"
You've got to admit the vast majority (No I can't quote numbers) of ardent alternative bee keepers are new to the craft, full of zeal but with little experience beyond that gleaned from reading matter and a desire to bond with the bees and each other . Being a small group (in the grand scheme of things) they tend to be vociferous ,with quite a few seeing themselves as crusaders !
There is (I am glad to say ) ,room for them in this addiction of ours . I am also glad that the flora requiring pollination to feed the word doesn't have to rely on any stereotype approach !.
VM
 
The issue isn't how you keep your insects, it's the fact that anyone that manages their insects in a different manner is slagged off - just read this forum - it happens all the time, so what's really the problem? If someone wants to keep their bees in a flowerpot or a crystal encrusted pyramid - so what?

As for get real, the same applies. There is nothing fanciful about the way I keep bees and it's successful - I just stopped doing a load of things "that I learnt by rote" when I started questioning why I was doing it. As for the time aspect you mention, well that's a bit odd because it takes less, no regular inspections, no treatments, no cell culling.

Chris
 
I wish i had the luxury of the space to keep bees without intrusive management, Chris.
but, because I keep bees in my back garden,
I need (and have) well mannered bees
I need to 'control' swarming using A/S.
I don't need to feed my bees,
I keep them on solid floors (never seen a tree with a mesh floor)
There's no drone culling here, thank you very much! and no problems with queens mating either.

Innit great there's loads of ways to keep / have bees ;)
 
I'm a "natural" beekeeper.

Frankly I have a thick skin and an enquiring mind. (others may suggest both are thick)

So really I don't care much what others say if it's based on custom and practise and not on science.. (see matchsticks :sorry:).

Some forum members appear unsuited to the rough and tumble of the real world where people hold diverse opinions and are unafraid to criticise others - often wrongly but that is irrelevant.

If anyone hopes for anodyne platitudes or a scholarly debate, perhaps they should try elsewhere..
 
The issue isn't how you keep your insects, it's the fact that anyone that manages their insects in a different manner is slagged off - just read this forum - it happens all the time, so what's really the problem? If someone wants to keep their bees in a flowerpot or a crystal encrusted pyramid - so what? Chris
Slagged off ? (your terminology) is often the result of the manner in which you choose to present your methods or lack of in some cases! We KNOW our way is best seems to leap from the postings . It may not be openly expressed but terminology such as bees being happier , the welfare of the bees etc , imply that you have all the answer and the rest of us are sheeplike followers of convention . This is bound to illicit angry responses and not a few of you enjoy bathing in the glow thereof .
VM
 
The issue isn't how you keep your insects, it's the fact that anyone that manages their insects in a different manner is slagged off - just read this forum - it happens all the time, so what's really the problem? If someone wants to keep their bees in a flowerpot or a crystal encrusted pyramid - so what?
...

Chris, I think the main problem is that it was the owner of the crystal-encrusted, mystically-decorated cowshit hive, operated on "biodynamic principles" that was 'slagging off' all other beekeepers who didn't employ such 'enlightened techniques'.
Who started it?
Any retaliation to such nonsense was being knowingly invited.
Its called "trolling".


I don't give a stuff if anyone else wants to align their hives with ley lines and dance round them in the moonlight without adequate protective clothing. Or build their hives out of cowshit.

However, I do object to being slagged off by them for not doing the same.
Accordingly, I have a publicity-seeker on my ignore list.
Trolling on telly is still trolling, and I'm not playing.
I'm out of this subject and recommend that response to others.
 
The issue isn't how you keep your insects, it's the fact that anyone that manages their insects in a different manner is slagged off - just read this forum - it happens all the time, so what's really the problem? If someone wants to keep their bees in a flowerpot or a crystal encrusted pyramid - so what?

As for get real, the same applies. There is nothing fanciful about the way I keep bees and it's successful - I just stopped doing a load of things "that I learnt by rote" when I started questioning why I was doing it. As for the time aspect you mention, well that's a bit odd because it takes less, no regular inspections, no treatments, no cell culling.

Chris

I have no issue whatsoever with beekeepers or beehavers keeping bees anyway they like (so long as they uphold their statutory obligation to have the bees in a condition where an inspector can assertain the brood is free from desease) its the holier than thou attitude and the evangelical need to gain followers that gets my goat.
I wonder how many beekeepers have lost their bees after reading your posts Chris, assuming what works for you in another country might work for them in their situation ?
I cannot believe any of us enjoy having to treat for varroa, its just that experience tells us that we not only loose our bees by not treating, but we also would cause a hazard to our neighbouring beekeepers as any untreated collapsing colonies re infest all those around.
 
"its the holier than thou attitude and the evangelical need to gain followers that gets my goat" - pots and kettles job methinks! I find many "conventional" beeks have this "ours is the one and only true way" attitude, and shrill loudly should anyone dare to do it differently....

As for this tosh about spreading disease, badly kept conventional hives are often to blame......
 
Pargyle
Phil - what a balanced viewpoint. I agree entirely. I often tell new bees that there is no 'one' right answer in beekeeping and similarly, there is no one right way to keep bees - we all do something differently - that's the beauty of it for me - using ones knowledge & experience to postulate a plan then re-evaluate and change the plan depending on the variables.

Seems to me you'll make a damn fine beekeeper.
 
I agree that there is no one right way to keep bees, and that there are many differences of opinion about how and what should be done with bees. As long as the bees are healthy and you are happy you should get on with however, you choose.

I would draw the line on making honey, which is ultimately going to be a food product sold to the general product in a box of cowsh!t. How on earth can that satisfy any form of foods standards?
 
If you observe your bees, you'll find that they're quite partial to the water that collects on top of cowpats - in the case of the Sun hive, a dry layer serves as an outer skin to the hive. There are still a great many cowdung-covered skeps in use on the heaths of Germany, without apparent ill-effects - personally I'd far sooner have honey from such a hive than from bees foraging on neonicotinoid-treated or GMO crops.......
 

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