Have I killed my bees by suffocation, or overdosing on Apiguard?

[Mike a]

Out of interest how strong is the colony or how many frames are they covering. ?

 

[PaleoPerson]

May be a silly question, but were there any bee escapes on any of your crownboards/are the holes fully open?

 

[justme]

I went down to feed the bees and found a whole lot dead inside the hive. By "a whole lot" I mean at least a hundred on top of the crownboard, near the Apiguard. I'll admit this is a third treatment, as they had a particularly heavy varroa fall in September. The Apiguard has been on a week.

Hive configuration is

- super at the bottom (filled with stores for winter)

- crownboard (which I placed on at the advice of another beekeeper - long story.) But perhaps it's blocking free passage down through to the entrance and contributing to possible suffocation? I read this interesting thread http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1400&highlight=apiguard+poison However I still see bees flying in and out of the entrance - not as many as my other hive, but certainly still lots of activity. I will go check that anyway tomorrow in the daylight.

- brood box

- another crownboard

- eke - for apiguard treatment

Varroa sticky board has been in place.

I removed the apiguard and varroa sticky board (only one mite noted) once I'd seen all the dead bees. And scooped out most of the dead bees on the uppermost crownboard. And took a video*, which shows the action of one of the bees dying. Thought it might offer some clues.

Have saved the dead bees for possible further investigation.

Based on what I've mentioned here, and the video, has anyone got any advice or input? Can anyone offer an idea of what the reason might be?

*This video is a bit distressing - sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1dSxsgO8DI

Hi all, similar happened to my main colony 21 days ago with last of hivemakers varroa recipe. However my hive was in normal configurement on 2 OSB boxes and lots of bees. Entrance reduced to 1 1/2" and varroa insert was in. Small mesh vents 3/4" in roof sides (2 of)
I hadnt been able to get all the bees below the crownboard, I have 2 feed holes, or 1 feed hole,1 escapehole, no porter ecape at the mo. I covered the feedhole but left the other hole open about 3/4" to allow bees room to descend.
Last Monday (11th), lovely warm day went in to remove any oasis if left (none), when I removed roof lots of dead bees and some living, noticed none dying though. The rest of the bees seemed fine.

Good news, very warm day yesterday, removed lid to look for repeat, none:.)
All seems fine, so Margo, dont know for sure but you my be ok.

 

[margob99]

Thanks for all the positive constructive input and advice.

1. I think the comment about the apiguard being exposed in a small confined area and too intense, therefore overwhelming bees up there is right, plus

2. I placed a round feeder above one hole of the crownboard, so maybe the apiguard was increasingly intensified because there was just one hole in the crownboard.

3. With the crownboard separating the super below (yes, the advice from my BKA was that would encourage bees to take the honey up into the BB), that means the BB was between two crownboards which, yes, would've made it hard for the bees to find their way out.

4. This hive has not seemed to be queenright since August. I cocked up a Combine recently and, suspecting there might be a Queen in there, split them again. Probably a bad beginner's mistake, I know.

5. Last apiguard treatment in September produced a heavy fall of varroa so that's why I did this third one. There has been no varroa on the sticky board. But of course there wouldn't be - there's a crownboard between it and the apiguard! (I've just realised that. OMG I'm a ****).


So I guess what I need to do is this:

A. Remove apiguard and stickyboard. Already done.

B. Take bottom crownboard off, and move the store-filled super above the BB.

C. Check yet again for any Queen-sign.

D. Fondant feed in.

E. Leave em alone. I've really messed this lot around, and if they survive the winter, it'll be not because of me, but in spite of me.


While I take the comment about lack of support from my BKA, they are spread thin with limited expertise retained in only a few people, and inundated with newbies, plus it was my decision to barge on ahead and get bees without a mentor to help me. So I must take the consequences.

While I acknowledge my own errors, I guess I am learning. I just feel guilty that it's at the expense of the bees. But if I carry on like that, I'll never get ahead ...

Thanks again, all!

 

[drstitson]

I agree with MM - sounds like you've created an apiguard "gas chamber" above the crown board. PLus not effectively treating the rest of the hive!

 

[RoofTops]

My experience of overdosing with Apiguard (in a apidea) is the bees come out of the hive and hang around the entrance. I have heard others having the same experience but perhaps the low ambient temperatures might have altered their behaviour.

 

[justme]

Hi all, great you've sorted Moggs situation out but any ideas on mine. I wasn't too worried about it but now you've got me thinking.

Oasis was below crown board on tops of frames in all four corners. But dead bees were above the crownboard.

 

[Black Comb]

Justme
Why couldn't you get all your bees below the crownboard?

 

[justme]

Peter S. Weather was cooling and more bees were coming out of said hole than going back in. Smoke had no effect. Boxes are rather full of bees but expecting reduction anyway, just not on crown board. 2 OSB boxes are 24 frames in total, 7.1" deep.

Bees are ligustica.

 

[kazmcc]

Thanks for all the positive constructive input and advice.

1. I think the comment about the apiguard being exposed in a small confined area and too intense, therefore overwhelming bees up there is right, plus

2. I placed a round feeder above one hole of the crownboard, so maybe the apiguard was increasingly intensified because there was just one hole in the crownboard.

3. With the crownboard separating the super below (yes, the advice from my BKA was that would encourage bees to take the honey up into the BB), that means the BB was between two crownboards which, yes, would've made it hard for the bees to find their way out.

4. This hive has not seemed to be queenright since August. I cocked up a Combine recently and, suspecting there might be a Queen in there, split them again. Probably a bad beginner's mistake, I know.

5. Last apiguard treatment in September produced a heavy fall of varroa so that's why I did this third one. There has been no varroa on the sticky board. But of course there wouldn't be - there's a crownboard between it and the apiguard! (I've just realised that. OMG I'm a ****).


So I guess what I need to do is this:

A. Remove apiguard and stickyboard. Already done.

B. Take bottom crownboard off, and move the store-filled super above the BB.

C. Check yet again for any Queen-sign.

D. Fondant feed in.

E. Leave em alone. I've really messed this lot around, and if they survive the winter, it'll be not because of me, but in spite of me.


While I take the comment about lack of support from my BKA, they are spread thin with limited expertise retained in only a few people, and inundated with newbies, plus it was my decision to barge on ahead and get bees without a mentor to help me. So I must take the consequences.

While I acknowledge my own errors, I guess I am learning. I just feel guilty that it's at the expense of the bees. But if I carry on like that, I'll never get ahead ...

Thanks again, all!

Aww Margo, don't be so hard on yourself. You took advice, someone you trusted gave you the wrong one. Jeez, our bees want the thank themselves lucky it's not just me looking after them alone.....could you imagine!

My motto is " now I know", you can probably tell from that I make many mistakes It is clear you care about your bees, do you want to share my ( MY admin ) corner?

 

[Black Comb]

So the crownboard was at the very top (above oasis) below the roof and one of the holes was covered by a feeder and you left the other one open so any bees that spilled onto the crownboard through this uncovered hole could escape back down?

When feeding through one of the holes I just block the other one off (beforehand) with top of margarine tub or a metal grill held with drawing pins. When feeding they inevitably get excited and spill through so it's best to block it off.

why did they die? Well if the odd bee does get stuck under the roof they are always dead next time I inspect. Probably wear themselves out trying to escape.

 

[rae]

. This hive has not seemed to be queenright since August. I cocked up a Combine recently and, suspecting there might be a Queen in there, split them again. Probably a bad beginner's mistake, I know.

Not sure how many hives you have....but if one is not queenright now, it is stuffed. The problem is the weather (you don't really want to be looking for queens now....). Does the hive have any sign of brood?

 

[kazmcc]

can anyone tell me whether bees naturally die like that, or was that unusual, the curling up and twisting I mean. Thanks.

 

[justme]

Peter S. The one blocked was blocked with a bit of thick ply, this raised the roof a little ,3/4"?, but sides deep enough not to cause issues.
They have at least 16 frames full of stores so dont need feeding, for now anyway, Ligustica!........

 

[MuswellMetro]

Peter S. Weather was cooling and more bees were coming out of said hole than going back in. Smoke had no effect. Boxes are rather full of bees but expecting reduction anyway, just not on crown board. 2 OSB boxes are 24 frames in total, 7.1" deep.

Bees are ligustica.

think that just a problem with thymol crystals mixes rather than apiguard, often you get an initial large release of thymol vapour, causing the bees either to beard outside or try to escape

in my case i found dead bees in the cone of an empty rapid feeder above thymol patties, they appeared to have gone there to escape the fumes then got stranded and did not want to go down

i think yours is just the same, they have tried to escape the fumes and got stranded and chilled above the crown, not wishing to go back down ointo the thymol air


if you have an open OMF then you need that hole closed, i would cover and brush the bees to the front of the hive, so any non forager find their way back into the hive

so nothing to worry about

whether you need insulation above the crown in your location is up to you ,my option is to use a 460x 460 mm crown board size 2" or 4" slab of poly insulation or kingspan

 

[justme]

Thanks MM.
Not entirely made my mind up re insulation yet. Heard so much about damp not cold killing bees that using insulation seems a little unnecessary to me, I think......

 

[MuswellMetro]

it just that i have always been bought up to insulate the space above the crown board, so i do

in the1960's all my Grandfather hives in bedfordshire had either a straw filled pillow or an old feather pillow above the crown board, This was turned every two months in winter to air it, whether turning it did any good i have no idea

the beekeeping videos of the thirties i have seen have a similar insulation pillows and the beehive maker taken over by thornesi n the 1980's ,E H Talylors of welwyn's 1943 guide to beekeeping stresses that their national hive come with a crown board pillow with ventilation hole

It worked in cold 1940's then as there are cold winters forecast for the next three years due to la nina then i am still going to insulate my hives, and its already on as 0c tonight with wintery sleet showers ( its october three years ago at this time my hive biult 10 swarm cells as it was so mild)

 

[drstitson]

justme

the most important role of the insulation is to prevent condensation on the crownboard which then drips on the cluster.

 

[justme]

the most important role of the insulation is to prevent condensation on the crownboard which then drips on the cluster.

Guess thats a good point, thanks:.) Take it though that it neednt be hugely thick, just an inch or so?

 

[drstitson]

insulation

spaceboard is currently on offer at B&Q - around £3.50 a sheet which'll do 3 dadants or 2 nationals. 52.5mm thick and nice 'n' dense.