Struggling here, any help appreciated.

[understanding_bees]

So, hopefully, that's an end to it .... There are no UK Health Regulations associated with the insulation of beehives - hopefully common sense prevails ... although having seen some of the above posts I am not holding my breath for it .....

Thank you, Phillip for your moderate comments. I am not the person who has been bringing immoderate comments to this discussion thread. I can believe that there are no UK Health Regulations associated with the insulation of beehives. BUT I have not been talking about regulations about insulation.
I have been talking about food safety, which is another matter altogether. If the UK Health Regulations permit a material such as rockwool - which is hazardous to health - to be used in such close conjunction with a food substance such as honey, then I would very much appreciate official confirmation of such a permit.
In the meantime I would like to suggest that anyone who needs to provide insulation for their bees can choose from a variety of suitable materials for this purpose.. However, let me repeat and re-emphasize that rockwool and fibreglass insulation are not suitable materials for close association with foodstuffs

 

[user 20297]

Thank you, Phillip for your moderate comments. I am not the person who has been bringing immoderate comments to this discussion thread. I can believe that there are no UK Health Regulations associated with the insulation of beehives. BUT I have not been talking about regulations about insulation.
I have been talking about food safety, which is another matter altogether. If the UK Health Regulations permit a material such as rockwool - which is hazardous to health - to be used in such close conjunction with a food substance such as honey, then I would very much appreciate official confirmation of such a permit.
In the meantime I would like to suggest that anyone who needs to provide insulation for their bees can choose from a variety of suitable materials for this purpose.. However, let me repeat and re-emphasize that rockwool and fibreglass insulation are not suitable materials for close association with foodstuffs

Never mind the irritant fibres and dust, unprotected rockwool and fibreglass would be useless products in a beehive in any case. They would catch any condensation rising from within the hive and absorb the inevitable moisture which seeps through the joints between boxes. If those products were securely and permanently encased with a flexible material there could be benefits to using them.

At times when you may be using a box above the crownboard as an eke for feeding or whatever, a flexible or mouldable insulator, (which might include encapsulated rockwool), can be very useful. Recently I've been using cheap and ugly cushions from IKEA which are filled with polyester wadding, (another problem?) .
But PIR is so light, cheap and easy to work with that I doubt that anyone actually uses rockwool with bees except when sealed between walls in a double-walled hive, so the preceding argument seems academic.

 

[understanding_bees]

But PIR is so light, cheap and easy to work with that I doubt that anyone actually uses rockwool with bees except when sealed between walls in a double-walled hive, so the preceding argument seems academic.

Thank you, Beebe, for your comments. The polystyrene insulation which I have used in my hives was obtained as scrap offcuts from a house construction project. I have used 100mm thick polystyrene slabs which snugly fit inside hive boxes which I have placed above the clear crown boards on my hives. Before I fitted these slabs of insulation there was condensation on the underside of the crown boards, but since I fitted them the problem of condensation above the bees has been completely eliminated.

 

[enrico]

Thank you, Beebe, for your comments. The polystyrene insulation which I have used in my hives was obtained as scrap offcuts from a house construction project. I have used 100mm thick polystyrene slabs which snugly fit inside hive boxes which I have placed above the clear crown boards on my hives. Before I fitted these slabs of insulation there was condensation on the underside of the crown boards, but since I fitted them the problem of condensation above the bees has been completely eliminated.

Make sure you close the holes in the crown board. The bes love nibbling the insulation!

 

[Poly Hive]

Those bloody holes are a hangover from the past as are the equally useless porter escapes. My cb's are all solid and have insulation over them which is how omf's are meant to be. The info has been out there for decades so why it's not understood by now is beyond me.

PH

 

[understanding_bees]

Make sure you close the holes in the crown board. The bes love nibbling the insulation!

Yes, thanks. I do have holes, about 45mm diameter in my clear crown boards, but they are for my syrup feeders. I have made plugs which completely seal those holes, for when the feeders are not being used.

 

[MJNT]

Oxalic acid isn’t that food friendly either … just a thought wooden spoon etc

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oxalic acid isn’t that food friendly either … just a thought wooden spoon etc

It doesn’t get into the honey though does it?

 

[victor meldrew]

It doesn’t get into the honey though does it?

There is oxalic acid occurring naturally in honey !

 

[Erichalfbee]

There is oxalic acid occurring naturally in honey !

OK I meant that treating with Oxalic doesn't increase the amount that naturally occurs in the honey

 

[victor meldrew]

OK I meant that treating with Oxalic doesn't increase the amount that naturally occurs in the honey

I was backing your reply

 

[Patrick1]

Look what nature does to insulate the ground, its as simple as leaves, in a bag maybe but that will allow moisture to collect on the surface and drip back into the hive possibly.
An unpackaged fill of leaves packed tight I guess would do the job well, I used to use carpet squares from the local shop, they throw them away at the end of the line. They also act like a wick in soaking up moisture, just be careful of the mould that builds up over time.

 

[roche]

Insulation has to be dry to work. If it is damp it conducts heat - in this case away from the colony. That is why sealed cell insulations such as recticell and so on are so effective. The objective is to achieve the dew point within the (dry) insulation, without a moisture bridge.

 

[understanding_bees]

Look what nature does to insulate the ground, its as simple as leaves, in a bag maybe but that will allow moisture to collect on the surface and drip back into the hive possibly.
An unpackaged fill of leaves packed tight I guess would do the job well, I used to use carpet squares from the local shop, they throw them away at the end of the line. They also act like a wick in soaking up moisture, just be careful of the mould that builds up over time.

In a recent comment on the thread “Cold way warm way and solid floors”, Finman said:
“Condensation happens on colder surfaces. When insulation is better in crownboard than in walls, condensation happens in side walls.” This advice from Finman agrees exactly with my own experience, which I described in post #63 of this discussion thread.

Since the availability of very effective insulation materials such as polystyrene foam, I wonder why there are still some beekeepers who use other less-effective types of insulation material at the top of their hives. Many things have been written, over time, about “blankets” which are intended to absorb condensation moisture. Comments have also been made about mould which builds up over time. This kind of problem, with condensation above the brood, can be completely eliminated - if suitable, effective insulation is installed above the frames in the top hive box.

Water vapour is produced during the respiration process of bees, and this vapour will condense when the dew point is reached. If anyone is unfamiliar with the term “dew point”, the following explanation may help: Dew Point vs Humidity

The dew point is the temperature the air needs to be cooled to (at constant pressure) in order to achieve a relative humidity (RH) of 100%. At this point the air cannot hold more water in the gas form. If the air were to be cooled even more, water vapor would have to come out of the atmosphere in the liquid form, usually as fog or precipitation.

There is a famous old proverb which says that: “Prevention is better than cure”

We will not need to find or implement “cures” for condensation above the bees, if we use appropriate methods for “prevention” of the problem. There is even a bonus benefit for allowing the condensation of moisture (from bees respiration) on the walls of the hive, in that there will be a source of moisture inside the hive, to help meet the needs which the bees have for water.

 

[pargyle]

We will not need to find or implement “cures” for condensation above the bees, if we use appropriate methods for “prevention” of the problem. There is even a bonus benefit for allowing the condensation of moisture (from bees respiration) on the walls of the hive, in that there will be a source of moisture inside the hive, to help meet the needs which the bees have for water.

I think you are probably pushing against an open door on here - I don't think there are many on here who are not converted to the idea of top insulation - however, in the wider beekeeping community - I regret that those who favour insulation for their bees are still very much in a minority ....another fifty years or so and it may catch on !

 

[Wilco]

Oxalic acid isn’t that food friendly either … just a thought wooden spoon etc

See attached. Not a concern at the levels normally used.

 

[Erichalfbee]

In a recent comment on the thread “Cold way warm way and solid floors”, Finman said:
“Condensation happens on colder surfaces. When insulation is better in crownboard than in walls, condensation happens in side walls.” This advice from Finman agrees exactly with my own experience, which I described in post #63 of this discussion thread.

Since the availability of very effective insulation materials such as polystyrene foam, I wonder why there are still some beekeepers who use other less-effective types of insulation material at the top of their hives.

This forum has been banging on about top insulation for years
Nevertheless, some folk don’t insulate but ventilate their hives with open crownboards, convinced that this is the way to go.
Beekeeping practices move at a slow pace. Some beekeepers retain dinosaur practices despite modern evidence.

 

[user 20297]

Thank you, Beebe, for your comments. The polystyrene insulation which I have used in my hives was obtained as scrap offcuts from a house construction project. I have used 100mm thick polystyrene slabs which snugly fit inside hive boxes which I have placed above the clear crown boards on my hives. Before I fitted these slabs of insulation there was condensation on the underside of the crown boards, but since I fitted them the problem of condensation above the bees has been completely eliminated.

As I've commented previously, there are times when I like to use a flexible insulating material which I can tuck around feeders or fondant blocks. If I didn't do this there would be a large void below the insulated roof which might become cold enough to cause condensation and which might dissuade the bees from exploring the food source.

I've found an interesting possibility in the UK made from recycled plastics; from the description, this product has a lot going for it for the purpose I describe;
https://www.celticsustainables.co.u...wr0JZWCnNe2rPB25eMOUppDx3HfM4f7BoCId0QAvD_BwE
There are also purpose designed pillows on eBay made from bagged-up alpaca wool:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/26530267...a=1&pg=2334524&_trksid=p2334524.c100667.m2042
I've also used these recycled chip-foam quilts which are excellent:
https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?...2D2hfazfk-xEftveEDsG00TRbesDdhtRoCK5IQAvD_BwE

 

[frankenstine]

my 2 p on this, rockwool isnt much good for anything other than nesting material for mice. at least sheets of PIR stay where you put them, and you don't need as much of it ( thickness wise ) to get the same effect

 

[Wilco]

As I've commented previously, there are times when I like to use a flexible insulating material which I can tuck around feeders or fondant blocks. If I didn't do this there would be a large void below the insulated roof which might become cold enough to cause condensation and which might dissuade the bees from exploring the food source.

I've found an interesting possibility in the UK made from recycled plastics; from the description, this product has a lot going for it for the purpose I describe;
https://www.celticsustainables.co.u...wr0JZWCnNe2rPB25eMOUppDx3HfM4f7BoCId0QAvD_BwE
There are also purpose designed pillows on eBay made from bagged-up alpaca wool:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/26530267...a=1&pg=2334524&_trksid=p2334524.c100667.m2042
I've also used these recycled chip-foam quilts which are excellent:
https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?...2D2hfazfk-xEftveEDsG00TRbesDdhtRoCK5IQAvD_BwE

Bit more work but not hard to make using a jug saw and some tape. These are designed to hold nothing or a two litre rapid feeder of syrup or a takeaway tub of fondant. Wood and PIR salvaged from pallets/skips so only cost was the tape (although probably better to use aluminium tape than duct tape), nails, glue and Danish oil.

P.S. That ebay listing irritates me... It's alpaca fibre, not wool! Wool is from sheep.