Any idea whats going on here?

[Bugbyte]

Hi all,

24 days ago we noticed our hive was extremely busy, and being a warmish day and fearing a swarm we went against all advice and opened it up to find it absolutely rammed with bees - Brood box and Super had bees on every frame plus two queen cells with eggs in them. We did a walk away split and moved the old queen with 6 frames of part brood and part honey along with some of the super frames to a new hive we were preparing, and gave them bee bread food which they appear to be enjoying. We then left the hives well alone until today.

On inspection, old queen is doing very well in her new hive and the number of bees has almost doubled. Capped brood on 2 1/2 frames and eggs / grubs on 3 more, plus lots of stores. However, there was one capped queen cell which got ripped apart when we pulled out a frame - we would probably it killed off anyway as our queen is ridiculously placid and still laying well. There were lots of play cups with nothing in them.

On inspection of the old hive we could not see the new queen and there are no eggs yet, and no brood left to hatch. It has only been 24 days and it takes at least this amount of time for a new queen to develop into a laying queen, so I am not worried about that, but on one of the frames at the bottom there was a fully formed massive capped and unhatched queen cell which was definitely not there before. The old queen was removed 24 days ago so no new eggs for 24 days - A queen cell takes 16 days from egg to hatch so it cannot be a queen - so what is in there???? I have just left it for now.

As a precaution (and mild panic as this is only our second year) we took a frame of eggs and grubs from the old queen and swapped it for an empty frame in the potentially queen lite hive to give them a chance of creating another queen if the new one didn't make it. Was this a brilliant / OK / bad / or terrible move?

Thanks in advance for any answers - This forum is invaluable to us newbies (why isn't the beginners section called 'newbees?) and takes us from 'making it up as we go along' to 'semi informed'!

 

[Wilco]

It may be that they were superceding rather than swarming, hence why they're still trying to do it.

If there were two queen cells in the queenless half, one may have emerged and not quite be laying yet and the massive new cell could just be a failed emergency cell produced in response to the loss of the queen (through you splitting) whilst they were trying to supercede.

What were the grounds on which people advised you not to inspect your colony at the start?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

if the advice was not to inspect , it was pretty poor advice IMHO. Just been reading comments on my association page, and it's the same 'too cold to open' and that's from the chair!!
And there's me with two supers on some hives and getting my kit ready to Demarree!

 

[Erichalfbee]

too cold to open

I know beginners find this a difficult one to get their heads round but they really have to. I’ve inspected hives in the rain under a fishing umbrella.

 

[Bugbyte]

Yes internet wisdom was we should not open our hives until it was warmer.

 

[madasafish]

I just add supers and keep adding when bees appear in volume in the top box.
Saves lots of fiddling about.. of course if you collect swarms, you will have swarmy bees - unless you requeen..

 

[Erichalfbee]

I just add supers and keep adding when bees appear in volume in the top box.
Saves lots of fiddling about.. of course if you collect swarms, you will have swarmy bees - unless you requeen..

Yes, super full of bees, add another

 

[JamezF]

if the advice was not to inspect , it was pretty poor advice IMHO. Just been reading comments on my association page, and it's the same 'too cold to open' and that's from the chair!!
And there's me with two supers on some hives and getting my kit ready to Demarree!

I have found myself wondering if the old "shirtsleeves" adage doesn't come from an earlier time when people were rather more hardy. Certainly by the time it was comfortable be to out in shirtsleeves here this year it was way too late to have started inspecting -- colonies were already taking off and then some.

Next year I might seriously consider starting inspections as soon as I see a reasonable number of bees flying even if common wisdom suggests it is too cold, given that some of my home colonies were flying on sunny days even if it was barely above 5°C.

A couple of months back quite a few people here were posting "It's too early!" and I'd not have disagreed, but given the way things are changing I think we may need to re-think what "too early" actually is.

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

Yes internet wisdom was we should not open our hives until it was warmer.

The internet is awash with twaddle or advice suited to West Arkansas, or people with not much more experience than you but with an overwheening need for internet attention.

Ignore much of it, except Black Mountain Honey, The Norfolk Honey Company and Dave Cushman's A-Z.

we went against all advice

JBM's reply above was tame (for once) but accurate and you will conclude (I hope) that local advice that is meant well (but may be useless) should be only one part of the process by which you arrive at a decision: your decision, your mistake, your success and the satisfaction of your own experience.

gave them bee bread food which they appear to be enjoying

Hang on: you have a booming spring colony and you're feeding? Feeding a bought product or giving a frame of pollen? Either way, undoubtedly unnecessary and likely to fill the BB with stores and reduce laying space (=swarming). Bees may well take it but they are opportunists with no off switch (like our giant cat).

Old queen

one capped queen cell which got ripped apart

New queen

a fully formed massive capped and unhatched queen cell

Either of these may be supersedure but during the swarming season bees are just as likely to swarm on them, so treat them as such. Either may be also be dud, made and cleared out when colony balance changed, and then re-sealed. In this case, you may find a worker bee trapped inside.

Massive in what way? Be suspicious of long, thin cells (Q may be disconnected from royal jelly), QCs next to drone, conjoined cells (can't thin them without risking damage to both) and smooth (bees suspect it's duff and don't bother to strengthen the walls). Can we see a photo?

took a frame of eggs and grubs from the old queen and swapped it for an empty frame in the potentially queen lite hive to give them a chance of creating another queen if the new one didn't make it.

Good move! Check in about 5 days but quietly, with little smoke and fuss. If you find EQCs, you can leave them to it, but as they're in swarm mode you may wish to reduce to one.

PS: do you have a copy of the Haynes Bee Manual?

 

[Antipodes]

but on one of the frames at the bottom there was a fully formed massive capped and unhatched queen cell which was definitely not there before

Sometimes they make a dud queen cell (as per Eric's advice above). As an example here is a photo of a dud one they made in one of my hives in desperation last season.

 

[Wilco]

Yes internet wisdom was we should not open our hives until it was warmer.

Trust your gut (apart from the 'end of winter I can't wait to check them' feeling). You'll get a feel for it with time and experience.

Once I've started inspections, I tend to continue with them weekly regardless and just try to do them on the least worst day if it'll be truly awful. The exception to this is early season if it's really miserable and I know from the previous week that the colony is small so swarming is less likely-often those colonies are best left alone for a couple of weeks even if the weather is good.

One thing you may wish to consider is using clear cover boards so that you can get an idea of whether the bees are still clustered and how many seams of bees there are fairly early in the season, without having to open the hive and check frames. That way you can tell when the colony is expanding, which helps to inform whether to open up and inspect.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I have found myself wondering if the old "shirtsleeves" adage doesn't come from an earlier time when people were rather more hardy. Certainly by the time it was comfortable be to out in shirtsleeves here this year it was way too late to have started inspecting --

I’ve always been told you can inspect when the bees are busy flying from the hive. It’s normally worked well for me.

 

[Bugbyte]

Thanks for all of the advice.
The cell was smoother than the other queen cells I have seen.
I fed the new hive because I was feeling sorry for them. All of the flying workers scooted off back to the original hive leaving nothing going in. It took about a week for the nurse bees to start emerging outside, and what I found interesting was how bad they were at flying - smacking into each other and the hive whilst they were orientating! It also took them a couple of days to find any forage probably because there was no older bees to direct them.
I do agree with owning your decisions though.

 

[Bugbyte]

Update - 12 days later!

The old queen that was split into a new hive is laying well. The queen cells in there were taken down by the bees themselves - completely disappeared! Not sure if this is a bee thing or not, but pleased anyway.

The Old, possibly Queen Lite, hive did not make any queen cells out of the donated frame of eggs and no eggs have been laid. Quite possibly the hive does / did have a non laying Queen that failed to mate. Three days ago I brought a new Australian Queen in a cage and put her in. Two days ago I went to pull the tab out so the bees could start eating the sweet. However, most of the air holes were filled with wax! I presumed the bees really did not like her and were trying to suffocate her!

Today I went to have a look expecting the worst. She was not on any of the frames and the bees were really narky. Then, I saw her on the mesh floor under some bees - but it did not look like balling. I gently nudged them to see the Queen more clearly and she scurried off and hid under the bee gym. I am presuming if she has managed to survive this long in the hive they have accepted her?

 

[Antipodes]

Three days ago I brought a new Australian Queen in a cage and put her in.

How long had this queen been in a queen cage?

 

[Bugbyte]

24 hrs before removing the tab so bees could eat their way though to her, maybe another 24 hrs before she escaped and I looked 24 hours after that. I think the farm I brought it off cadged her the day I brought her so 2 days?

 

[Erichalfbee]

All you can do is check in another week
I check my introductions after a week. Two days is far too early and can result in the bees killing the queen

 

[Antipodes]

24 hrs before removing the tab so bees could eat their way though to her, maybe another 24 hrs before she escaped and I looked 24 hours after that. I think the farm I brought it off cadged her the day I brought her so 2 days?

I don't like the sound of it what is happening there to be honest. Certainly don't open them up for at least a week as Dani says. You might find that the workers don't kill her immediately, but at the same time do not let/make her lay.
I've seen bees build emergency queen cells on a frame of added brood whilst the introduced (and previously laying queen) is still alive in the colony, but not laying. The workers can be a bit like a cat playing with a mouse

 

[Bugbyte]

Bit of an emergency, so would really appreciate some advice.

Came home today to find the hive with the old queen was preparing to swarm. I have absolutely no idea if they have a new queen as on a previous inspection over a week ago I noticed the old queen was laying well and the queen cell that was in there had been removed by the bees completely - so could have hatched or not.

Today we found the hive had kicked out the old queen and she was on the floor outside surrounded by about 700 bees. We scooped her up and put her in a clip, then put her in a nuc with some drawn frames and honey. We made a ramp and her supporters are making their way inside. I have no idea if the nuc will be viable, but may as well try and keep them going. There is probably about 4000 bees left in the hive.

Is the following a good plan: Release the queen when all of her supporters are in and move the nuc to the other side of the garden - about 30m away and behind a hedge and bank of trees. Block the entrance up for 24 hours and then see what happens.

Later today, open the old hive to see if there is any new queen cells / new queen - or should I just leave them?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Newbeeneil]

If your estimation of bee numbers is correct I would doubt the viability of either hive. I would expect a swarming colony to be a minimum of 20000 bees at the time of year!