Stopping a colony from swarming

[DRam]

We inspected our hives last weekend and found that one colony which is on double brood was jam packed with bees, and although we could not see any queen cells or cups there was a lot of drone brood dotted about and on an entire side of one frame. We added some supers to give them additional space, but we are going to take steps this weekend to try and ensure that they do not swarm.

We are considering a 'modified' Pagden artificial swarm. Modified because we will not be able to do the Day 7 manipulation to move the hive in the new location (with the old colony and new queen) to the other side of the hive in the original position with queen and flying bees. Is this much of an issue? Could we just start the new hive with say two combs of brood from the original hive?

We thought that this method would have more of a feel to it in terms of an artificial swarm than the other suggestion we were given that was just separate the two brood boxes and let them get on with it. The queen will be in one and they will crack on knowing there is a smaller colony, and the brood box without the queen will raise emergency queen cells. This does sound attractive because we are rubbish at spotting queens, but I suppose if the broodbox without the queen ends up in the new location that colony will be depleted by flying bees returning to the old location.

Does anybody have any firm views on this modified Pagden, just splitting the boxes, or if doing an artificial swarm before the bees have started actually making queen cells is an issue or not.

Thank you in advance for any helpful advice.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

We are considering a 'modified' Pagden artificial swarm. Modified because we will not be able to do the Day 7 manipulation to move the hive in the new location (with the old colony and new queen) to the other side of the hive in the original position with queen and flying bees. Is this much of an issue?

The correct Pagden doesn't entail swapping the hives on day 7, that's a pretty pointless manipulation invented years later so no, it's not an issue at all.
What I don't understand is why perform a Pagden when you have no idea whether they are making swarm preparations yet, not once have you mentioned there being a queen cell in the hive (if there was, and you did nothing at the time, it's too late anyway.
I think you have swallowed the new obsession on conflating drone cells in the hive as meaning they are about to swarm.
You are not conducting a Pagden - modified or not, but just messing about with the bees.
If you are set on taking preemptive action, then conduct a Demaree
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/
But as you are already on double brood, it will be a modified Demaree as you need to shuffle the frames around to get as much brood in the top box as possible (or do it using three boxes - brood in the top two and the queen in the bottom.

 

[Ats]

Could you possibly run through how you set up a modified Demaree from a double brood without having 3 brood boxes which might be a bit much for me? I’ve read your linked article several times and want to Demaree one of my hives (currently on DB) this year.
I did a fairly brief inspection last weekend mostly of the top BB. Brood pretty much filling 6 frames in the top box, brood nest extending down to top part of central frames in bottom BB. Do I just shuffle central frames from bottom BB to edges of top, then put that as the top box in the Demaree?
I don’t think I’m quite ready yet to do- 6 frames brood, but lots of forage coming out at moment here in South Cambs including some OSR about 0.5miles away, so think probably soon…. (No QC seen, one tiny play cup at top of one frame, small patch drone brood).
Thank you and apologies if a silly question and for hijacking this thread.
Adam

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do I just shuffle central frames from bottom BB to edges of top, then put that as the top box in the Demaree?

yes, you just need to get as much of the brood into the top box as you can, thus leaving the queen in the bottom box with just drawn comb and/or foundation, obviously you also need to get the heaviest brood populated combs in the middle of the new 'nest'
remember you need to Demaree before they make QC's.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Could you possibly run through how you set up a modified Demaree from a double brood without having 3 brood boxes which might be a bit much for me? I’ve read your linked article several times and want to Demaree one of my hives (currently on DB) this year.
I did a fairly brief inspection last weekend mostly of the top BB. Brood pretty much filling 6 frames in the top box, brood nest extending down to top part of central frames in bottom BB. Do I just shuffle central frames from bottom BB to edges of top, then put that as the top box in the Demaree?
I don’t think I’m quite ready yet to do- 6 frames brood, but lots of forage coming out at moment here in South Cambs including some OSR about 0.5miles away, so think probably soon…. (No QC seen, one tiny play cup at top of one frame, small patch drone brood).
Thank you and apologies if a silly question and for hijacking this thread.
Adam

I always wait till there are drones flying. Can’t help with the double brood as I run 14x12 but if I did I would just put all the frames contains brood in the top. If there’s not room you’d have to leave some in the bottom.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I always wait till there are drones flying

but it doesn't really matter if you are doing it simply to avoid swarming as you would tear down any QC's you find in the top box after Demareeing anyway. Looking at how well mine have thus far come through the winter, I'm going to be very selective as to which hives I make increase from.

 

[Ats]

Thank you- that sounds good. I think will do next inspection, as you suggest.
Adam

 

[Cuckmere couple]

I'm going to be very selective as to which hives I make increase from.

as in, increase from those that came through winter the best?

 

[Cuckmere couple]

leaving the queen in the bottom box with just drawn comb and/or foundation,

i find i end up with a lot of capped brood frames of stores, which i have to store for later nucs to create room for foundation or comb in the bottom box

particularly with my quick inspections on sat...when i come to demaree, i will have too many frames of stores and need to make room for empties

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

as in, increase from those that came through winter the best?

they all came through, so yes, the best ones but also, I don't need many replacements so I can be choosy which lines i want to play with

 

[Cuckmere couple]

they all came through, so yes, the best ones but also, I don't need many replacements so I can be choosy which lines i want to play with

agree....i think i will be phasing out a line which i call 'D' this season....have given them a good run at it but all perform remarkably similar to each other from my observations

 

[ericbeaumont]

jam packed with bees

Does not equate to swarming.

could not see any queen cells or cups

No chance of a swarm, then.

added some supers to give them additional space

Good plan provided there is a flow on, in which case bees will park the nectar in those and avoid congesting the BBs, which would lead to swarming.

added some supers to give them additional space

Yes, some action in the BBs is needed because supers+QX will not give extra laying space, which (in conjunction with the supers) is crucial to avoid swarming.

the brood box without the queen will raise emergency queen cells

Yes, but then what? Unless sexually mature drones are flying in quantity within five miles, there's no chance of mating. Even in sunny Surrey and London, drones are not yet on the wing.

artificial swarm before the bees have started ... making queen cells

A pre-emptive split is the term, but I agree with JBM, there is no evidence that they mean to swarm. In addition to the Demaree, consider the vertical split, which requires less kit, less work and allows for quick re-uniting for the main flow.

Third option is to give a third BB: put into the middle of it a few frames of openish brood, slot the box between the current two, and let them get on with it. By late summer the top BB will be full of honey and can be extracted to give a useful stock of comb.

How old is the queen?
Are the super frames drawn comb or foundation?

 

[hemo]

How many combs contained brood ?
If outer combs are unused then move them inboard and split the brood.
If stores or pollen are clogging space simply remove some and just leave two of each, I find with double brood it is sufficient to not need to demeree unless my queens go over 16 or 17 frames with brood.

A vertical split will work simply remove all the sealed brood older 7/8 day larvae to an upper BB.

Not forgetting jam packed with bees means little without knowing how much brood, also bees will still be dying off in large numbers . It only very early April still.

 

[DRam]

The correct Pagden doesn't entail swapping the hives on day 7, that's a pretty pointless manipulation invented years later so no, it's not an issue at all.
What I don't understand is why perform a Pagden when you have no idea whether they are making swarm preparations yet, not once have you mentioned there being a queen cell in the hive (if there was, and you did nothing at the time, it's too late anyway.
I think you have swallowed the new obsession on conflating drone cells in the hive as meaning they are about to swarm.
You are not conducting a Pagden - modified or not, but just messing about with the bees.
If you are set on taking preemptive action, then conduct a Demaree
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/
But as you are already on double brood, it will be a modified Demaree as you need to shuffle the frames around to get as much brood in the top box as possible (or do it using three boxes - brood in the top two and the queen in the bottom.

I will be away with work for a couple of weeks shortly and I don't want to leave my partner with a possible swarming issue, so the Demaree seems to be a good plan of action if they have not raised any queen cells by this weekend.

If they have then we can choose between that and a Pagden aertificial swarm.

Thank you.

 

[hemo]

One hasn't yet said how the brood is laid up lots of bees means little , where as what is important is laying space.
How old is your Qu ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I will be away with work for a couple of weeks shortly and I don't want to leave my partner with a possible swarming issue, so the Demaree seems to be a good plan of action if they have not raised any queen cells by this weekend.

If they have then we can choose between that and a Pagden aertificial swarm.

Thank you.

remember you may get some QC's in the upper box in a Demaree, which you either need to tear down or reduce to one, of course, if you don't have an upper entrance you can just hope the bees will sort themselves out

 

[DRam]

Does not equate to swarming.


No chance of a swarm, then.


Good plan provided there is a flow on, in which case bees will park the nectar in those and avoid congesting the BBs, which would lead to swarming.


Yes, some action in the BBs is needed because supers+QX will not give extra laying space, which (in conjunction with the supers) is crucial to avoid swarming.


Yes, but then what? Unless sexually mature drones are flying in quantity within five miles, there's no chance of mating. Even in sunny Surrey and London, drones are not yet on the wing.


A pre-emptive split is the term, but I agree with JBM, there is no evidence that they mean to swarm. In addition to the Demaree, consider the vertical split, which requires less kit, less work and allows for quick re-uniting for the main flow.

Third option is to give a third BB: put into the middle of it a few frames of openish brood, slot the box between the current two, and let them get on with it. By late summer the top BB will be full of honey and can be extracted to give a useful stock of comb.

How old is the queen?
Are the super frames drawn comb or foundation?

Thank you for the reply.

We have already had reports of people seeing swarms and seeing queen cells being raised, and maybe I am being overly anxious about this colony swarming.

An additional (third) brood box is certainly the easiest option.

You make a good point and I understand what you say about drones not flying, so deliberately forcing them to re-queen at this stage would seem to be a poor idea.

I have been told that once a colony decides to swarm and it starts making preparations it is difficult to stop that happening. There was a considerable amount of drone brood, with one full side of a brood frame entirely drone, is this normal or does this sound like swarm preparations are underway and its just a matter of time?

 

[DRam]

One hasn't yet said how the brood is laid up lots of bees means little , where as what is important is laying space.
How old is your Qu ?

It is nearly a year old, this is will be the second summer

 

[hemo]

How about some actual brood figures , this seems to be the one thing you haven't even answered and haven't mentioned. . Drone brood and drones aren't an instant trigger to swarming , they are part of the natural build up with in .
How many combs actually have both sides laid up with brood ?

 

[ericbeaumont]

considerable amount of drone brood, with one full side of a brood frame entirely drone, is this normal or does this sound like swarm preparations are underway and its just a matter of time?

No, entirely standard, so interpret drones as a sign of a functioning colony and disconnect it in your mind from an intention to swarm.

It is nearly a year old, this is will be the second summer

More likely to swarm next year than this.

Did you give foundation or drawn comb in the supers?