Help wanted with trap out in the Oldham Area...

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Nearly ready to go guys. One question- does it matter where in the order of frames the brood goes or can I just whack them in?
Don't know exactly what you've got in the way of frames, but the brood is generally concentrated in the centre of the nest, so frames with most brood are in the centre of the box, and then gradually less as you move towards the edges of the box where it's pretty much just stores of honey/pollen.
 
Okay, the box is up! The tunnel is connected. Valve in. Frames in. Game time!

The frames already had some nurse bees with the brood so it's a little bit too chaotic to know exactly who is who at the moment.

Should I open the box up and provide them with sugar water or should I just leave them to their own devices?

Pictures to follow.
 
Okay, the box is up! The tunnel is connected. Valve in. Frames in. Game time!

The frames already had some nurse bees with the brood so it's a little bit too chaotic to know exactly who is who at the moment.

Should I open the box up and provide them with sugar water or should I just leave them to their own devices?

Pictures to follow.
I'd leave the feeding for the time being... until there's a good few bees in residence if you start putting feed in there you might attract robbing ... and the wasps are (at last) starting to make their presence felt. Was there an arc of capped honey over the brood in the frames you were given ? If so and the weather stays fine they should be OK without feeding for the time being. You will probably certainly have to feed them up for winter but it's too early to start now.

It will be a bit chaotic for a day or two as they will be confused but they will sort themselves out. Well done - not many new beekeepers (not that many time served beekeepers either !) would have tackled this themselves.

You have found a very generous beekeeper in your frames donor ...
 
Alrighty, time to pay my dues and fully document my day for future daredevils. And also ask some more questions along the way. Make a cup of tea and sit down.

Our kind local beekeeper (thank you Lucy) was happy to donate five frames to the cause, one with brood. She was also due to go on holiday at noon, so I had the frames and the brood but no box, no timber, and no real idea of how it was all going to come together.

The nuc box arrived nice and early, so I got a chance to wrap my head around the design. One hole on one side, one hole on the other. Easy.

We went and collected the frames. Lucy said given that we didn't know how long it was going to take to become operational, she would leave the nurse bees in situ. This sounded cool. Real bees in my new box - sold!

We dropped the frames and the new bees in a loaned box at the house and did a quick turnaround to B&Q. To save a few quid, we built the frame on the garden table. A few pieces of internal CLS timber, some free bits of ply from the offcut bin and the frame was sorted - £13 all in.

Then we went and stared at the plumbing aisle for an hour. How do you create an international space station like seal between a very uneven piece of grade listed stone and a pipe without pissing off the bees? The best I could come up with was a toilet plunger. I used a stanley knife to cut the handle out and then used a standard washing machine pipe, screwing it into the plunger, with the piece that you'd usually use to grip the 40mm pipe on one side and electrical tape on the other (to create a bulge). I then sealed the whole thing with basic sealant.

To attach it to the wall I used galvanised band. I poked two holes through the rubber and used washers, and machine nuts and bolts with a gob full of sealant.

On the nuc box end, I used an arts and crafts glue gun, sealant, and screw to sit the one-way valve on the inside of the entrance (this was a real pain in the a** - especially as it came off when everything was connected to I had to do a live fix with bees all over the place).

The washing machine pipe is tiered by design going from thin to thick. It wasn't thin enough to pass straight through but this was actually good. I used a Stanley knife to slice about halfway through the nuc and create a hole just smaller than the pipe. I then wedged it in so it both stopped halfway through and created a near-perfect seal.

I transferred the frames from my donor's box to mine. When I first opened it, I shat myself a bit by the bees that flew out, but after a few seconds, realised they really were as peaceful as I hoped them to be. I used a cheap head protector and a couple of layers of clothes but by the end of the day, I was picking bees up off the floor and putting them near the box without protection - even the wall bees were pretty placid through the whole ordeal.

At this point it felt like everything was ready. I soaked the hole with a smoker from Amazon and an egg box. Drilled two holes into the mortar. Quickly hammered in wall plugs and screwed in the rubber flange without damaging the stones. I didn't start the installatio with the box. Just the plunger, the attached waste pipe and a rag shoved down it to avoid a swarm in the face. I then quickly worked my way around the edge of a plunger with sealant. Not ideal, but given how uneven the surface was, I felt it was my only option. I'd already seen how they reacted to it (see original posts)... not daft enough to step in it and no fear of it and seemingly no toxicity.

Once I had a tight seal, I placed the box on top of the frame and pushed the waste pipe into position. I quickly sealed every possible other hole using sealant, too. I opened it up to the outside world, and the job was done.

(Actually, it wasn't because the valve fell off, and I had to pull three frames out to rescue it. Make sure it's 100% if you ever attempt this before you introduce bees.)

And that, is that. We wait and watch.

My big end-of-day questions are: Is there any risk of having too many nurse bees present in the new nuc box? I've done a bit of reading, and it seems it will generally be okay (and their warmth probably made this long day all possible), but I still am a bit concerned, given how small my feral hive is.

Should I still be thinking about introducing a queen? If so, when?

Is there a chance my pipe is too long and they will look at it, think 'no ta' and push further into the house? Will the ones that do make the voyage communicate that there is a plush green and pleasant land just beyond the tube?

Will the cap on the inside of the plunger present a challenge for the to get over? Will the 90 degree bend in the pipe be too much (I can potentially reposition so it's a straight stretch.

Is there anything I could have done differently? And is there anything I've done wrong that it's not too late to undo?

Is there anything at all I need to do over the next few weeks other than observe?

Hope this post helps others in the future.
 

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Very creative Sean, you are to be commended on your efforts. I just have one very small concern .. you recall early in this thread that I asked if these were definitely honey bees and you said that it had been comfirmed by beekeepers ?

That second photo of a bee looks suspiciously like Bombus Hypnorum - a tree bumble. It may just be the camera angle or a coincidence that a bumble bee took an interest in what you were doing ... but did you notice any difference between the nurse bees that came with your frames and the ones in residence in the wall cavity ?

Hopefully, they look pretty much the same ... if not ...
 
the valve fell off, and I had to pull three frames out to rescue it. Make sure it's 100%
Yes, it is delicate. I recall that I pinned & glued it and it took a few attempts before it was fixed.

The space between a frame side bar and a wall is only 8mm so it is inevitable that the frame will interfere with the cone. The only way to avoid this would have been to cut a section off the frame corner where it meets the cone.

thinking about introducing a queen
No need. You will recall that the option was to give either a queen or open brood. The nurse bees and the acquired nest bees will now use the young larvae you gave to make emergency queen cells; in 16 days a virgin will emerge, mate in the following week or two (depending on the weather) and begin to lay.

the ones that do make the voyage communicate that there is a plush green and pleasant land just beyond the tube?
No, once the nest bees emerge through the cone into the box, the wall will be of no interest to them and comms will cease.

Will the cap on the inside of the plunger present a challenge for the to get over? Will the 90 degree bend in the pipe be too much?
The tube and box layout look excellent.

Is there anything I could have done differently? And is there anything I've done wrong that it's not too late to undo?
Yes, but I doubt that it would have been better. You have resolved the practical obstacles and the rest is up to the bees.

Is there anything at all I need to do over the next few weeks other than observe?
Nothing is guaranteed with bees, so check daily that nothing has come unstuck and that bees are flying, and be prepared to intervene.

You will find it hard to resist a peek to confirm that EQCs have been made, so between the next 4-7 days give a tiny puff of smoke, ease the other frames away to give space, and take out the brood frame slowly. You will see queen cells; slide the frame back in, close up the other frames to it, and put the top back on.

Bees are sensitive to the period following queen emergence and mating, so after that quick, quiet look do not open the box for 3 weeks.

I imagine that nectar & pollen is available now in Oldham (Lucy will advise) but if you need to feed, or want to ease concern, take out the silicone bung and put over the hole half a kg. of fondant. Use plain bakers' fondant containing only sugar, glucose and water; your local BKA may have a supply.
 
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Very creative Sean, you are to be commended on your efforts. I just have one very small concern .. you recall early in this thread that I asked if these were definitely honey bees and you said that it had been comfirmed by beekeepers ?

That second photo of a bee looks suspiciously like Bombus Hypnorum - a tree bumble. It may just be the camera angle or a coincidence that a bumble bee took an interest in what you were doing ... but did you notice any difference between the nurse bees that came with your frames and the ones in residence in the wall cavity ?

Hopefully, they look pretty much the same ... if not ...
This is one of the ones that came into the house initially and didn't make it - pre-introducing any other bees. Does that alleviate your concerns? I really hope so! 😓If so, perhaps I just picked up a random bee?
 

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@Sean You have no idea how much I want this to work for you. 🤣.
You really have gone above and beyond here, kudos to Lucy the donor, if she isn't a member here she really should be just to bask in the limelight for a while.
I am no way there in my learning curve yet, it's very steep, and exceedingly slippery, and I keep finding myself at the bottom of the slope, sticky, and confused.
Once you have your very own colony please keep going, it's fascinating, infuriating, inspiring, and plenty more in equal parts, but so worth it.
(And whoever said this needs to be a sticky is right, it's the perfect example of how this forum is the best. )

Mark
 
This is one of the ones that came into the house initially and didn't make it - pre-introducing any other bees. Does that alleviate your concerns? I really hope so! 😓If so, perhaps I just picked up a random bee?
Yep ... that's a honey bee. All you need now is a bit of good luck and some decent weather ... not a lot more you can do but keep a gentle eye on them. Well done ...
 
By way of a little update, after the first day, some bees were definitely moving through the nuc because they were then obsessively hunting the wall for new ways in before calling it a day and entering the nuc on the other side. BUT... there was an awful lot of trepidation about going through the valve into the unknown.

I know this because we started having bees pop into the house again, which is what happened when I initially sealed the entrance. Also... I could see them crawling down the pipe and then crawling back again. Bees burrowing deeper into the house is a red line for the family so I decided to take the 'free will' approach. I've pulled the pipe out of the nuc, used the spare cone/valve I ordered and poked it through some tea filter mesh and then rubber banded the new cone/mesh to the end of the existing waste pipe. I've spun the nuc around so the free entrance is near the cone and opened it all back up again.

They seem much happier with this. Hundreds of bees are coming out today, and most eventually settled into the box for the night (some died in desperation to get back into the wall). They seem much happier to take the leap of faith with the sunshine they anticipate at the end of the cone.

Hopefully nobody tells me this was a bad move. It felt like the only next logical step.

Oh... also... BeeCam is live ;)
 

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By way of a little update, after the first day, some bees were definitely moving through the nuc because they were then obsessively hunting the wall for new ways in before calling it a day and entering the nuc on the other side. BUT... there was an awful lot of trepidation about going through the valve into the unknown.

I know this because we started having bees pop into the house again, which is what happened when I initially sealed the entrance. Also... I could see them crawling down the pipe and then crawling back again. Bees burrowing deeper into the house is a red line for the family so I decided to take the 'free will' approach. I've pulled the pipe out of the nuc, used the spare cone/valve I ordered and poked it through some tea filter mesh and then rubber banded the new cone/mesh to the end of the existing waste pipe. I've spun the nuc around so the free entrance is near the cone and opened it all back up again.

They seem much happier with this. Hundreds of bees are coming out today, and most eventually settled into the box for the night (some died in desperation to get back into the wall). They seem much happier to take the leap of faith with the sunshine they anticipate at the end of the cone.

Hopefully nobody tells me this was a bad move. It felt like the only next logical step.

Oh... also... BeeCam is live ;)
That’s the way I always do it, I found it much more productive than the pipe approach. 👍
 
By way of a little update, after the first day, some bees were definitely moving through the nuc because they were then obsessively hunting the wall for new ways in before calling it a day and entering the nuc on the other side. BUT... there was an awful lot of trepidation about going through the valve into the unknown.

I know this because we started having bees pop into the house again, which is what happened when I initially sealed the entrance. Also... I could see them crawling down the pipe and then crawling back again. Bees burrowing deeper into the house is a red line for the family so I decided to take the 'free will' approach. I've pulled the pipe out of the nuc, used the spare cone/valve I ordered and poked it through some tea filter mesh and then rubber banded the new cone/mesh to the end of the existing waste pipe. I've spun the nuc around so the free entrance is near the cone and opened it all back up again.

They seem much happier with this. Hundreds of bees are coming out today, and most eventually settled into the box for the night (some died in desperation to get back into the wall). They seem much happier to take the leap of faith with the sunshine they anticipate at the end of the cone.

Hopefully nobody tells me this was a bad move. It felt like the only next logical step.

Oh... also... BeeCam is live ;)
There's always more than one right way of doing anything in beekeeping and you did the right thing... if something is not working - try a different way. Looks like you are heading for a success ... and another one on the horizon. There will be many beekeepers who have never done a cut out or a trap out - you are ahead of the game and you haven't even started beekeeping !
 
Hi all. I’ve had to go away for a few days so have left them to their own devices.

Activity from the wall is now minimal and there is a steady flow of traffic to and from the nuc.

I haven’t gone searching for EQCs, partly because I don’t know what I’m looking for but also because I don’t want to disturb them (I’d have to bring the whole box down to do it safely).

So the big questions for now are:

Are there any non invasive ways to tell whether a new queen has come along? If this doesn’t happen will they just swarm and leave/die?

How long should I leave them before the next phase?

What is the next phase? Can I move the box to somewhere away from the house in a few weeks?

Assuming they sort themselves out, will they be okay in the nuc box over winter or do I need to start thinking about a real hive before then?

These are all questions about the bees. I have questions about the honeycomb in my wall but first things first!
 
That may be helpful. Thanks! Hopefully they have what they need! Would be cool if you might be able to come give them a general health check when you’re back. Petrol on me ofc
 
Are there any non invasive ways to tell whether a new queen has come along?
Not really.

If this doesn’t happen will they just swarm and leave/die?
They won't swarm (that occurs only when a colony is successful) nor leave, but will age until death in six weeks; by then the colony will have workers laying drones and it'll be the end of the road.

How long should I leave them before the next phase?
Three weeks from inception until opening, preferably in the company of Sutty.

will they be okay in the nuc box over winter?
Yes, most likely; Sutty will advise.
 

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