justme
Field Bee
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Excellent! Thanks:.)
Have I killed my bees by suffocation, or overdosing on Apiguard?
- Thread starter margob99
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Excellent! Thanks:.)
The most important thing about insulation is that it prevents heat transfer by conduction. That is what insulation means in this context. It is an inevitable that this will lead to a warmer inner surface. The temperature difference between the inner surface and the outside is exactly the same, theoretically. It is just that the temperature gradient across the insulant layer will be the greatest part of this temperature difference and as the heat is only slowly lost through the insulation the inner leaf will transfer heat quickly enough to the insulation face and then no more, so it's temperature is allowed to rise to the real inside air temperature. If the insulation is on the inside the result will effectively be the same.
Even so condensation would be inevitable unless there is ventilation of some kind to allow the several kilograms of water, produced by metabolism by the bees during the winter months, to be dissipated from the hive atmosphere.
The worst place for this condensation is undoubtedly directly above the cluster. Nevertheless, it cannot be seen to be a good situation where there is with a dry ceiling while the walls are running with water. Ventilation is the key to the second problem and may be arranged in several ways - top bottom, side or any combination of the different options for each.
I can go on until I am blue in the face (and there will still be some (lots, probably), who ignore what I say, or argue that I am wrong). Yes it is a free country, everyone has personal choice in the matter under discussion and I don't expect everyone to copy me exactly. All I can do is recount what I do (which to me seems *****-proof) and works! Well it works for me.
I have experienced WBCs (soilid floors); Nationals, with and without a super, over solid floors; Standard Nationals, with and without a super, over with OMF; 14 x 12 with solid floors and OMFs; and Dartingtons with OMF.
I have progressed with all these formats and have settled with 14 x 12 frames over OMF as the best all round combination/compromise which, when used with top insulation and no top ventilation, gives me an *****-proof method of over-wintering. Not perfect but as good as I can arrange. ***** proof because it works for me.
I give no top ventilation at all as I have found it totally unnecessary with an OMF. Agreed the amount of winter stores consumed with an OMF is more than with a solid floor, but as always, there are other things to take into account. I reckon that a couple of kilos of stores (~2kg sugar fed in the autumn) is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned as my colonies will always have more than sufficient stores to keep them going through the winter months of any normal UK winter. That excess is likely used up with early brooding which, to me, is a good thing (the early spring build-up).
My argument for this is that the honey crop is produced only with an excess of foraging bees (over three weeks old, after emergence). Too few foragers is a certain recipe for slow build up and a reduced or even non-existant excess (the harvest). Therefore I wish to encourage the bees to produce offspring which will ready as foragers for the strong early flow (OSR in this area).
So my recommendation is a 14 x 12 single box or a standard brood with super over, as a minimum - I live in Lincolnshire and I accept minimum sizes may vary for other locations/hive formats, etc. Remember, this amount of stores is for over-wintering and most of the early spring build-up ready for an early crop off the OSR in this area. Even so, I have had poor crops off the OSR usually traced back to colonies still building up while the flow was strongest - yes, I miss out sometimes as I don't have enough hives to reinforce a good number of production colonies to be sure of that 'plenty of excess foragers over brooding requirement'.
As regards ventilation, there are several ways of arranging this. Top, bottom, side or any combination of the various those methods employed. I find that no other ventilation is required to keep the colony dry when an OMF is fitted. All my hives are on wooden stands about 300mm, or more, high. This almost certainly means that the bottom ventilation of the OMF is always well in excess of the minimum required. I do attenuate the ventilation in severe weather conditions but only on selected colonies - the rest are left open all winter. The cost is minimal - remember it is damp, not cold that is the bees' worst enemy. A couple of kilos of feed is a quid and a half; a replacement colony is a great deal more cost (plus loss of any potential harvest)
It is a universal quality of fluids and density, that changes of density cause convection currents. It is almost universally true that the lower the temperature, the higher the density (water is one example which bucks this trend - that is why ice forms on the surface and the bottom layers remain at 4 degees Celsius -a fortunate example for the development/evolution of living organisms as we know them).
So there is very little exchange of hive atmosphere downwards (the upper layers are warmer and therefore less dense) - but from my experience, still more than enough to prevent condensation occurring inside the hive.
I also add some insulation to the sides of some hives and see it as doing nothing but good (cf polyhives). You may note that some of Finman's hive parts are 30mm thick - in excess of the Normal National by over 50% (30mm cf 3/4 inch <or 19mm> or even the reduced thickness, to 18mm, of many hives now) which must be a good advantage for his climate.
The above is obviously not the only way to get the job done. All I can say is my colonies do not normally have damp inside the hives (no damp walls or mould on outer frames) and over-winter as well as I can manage from the considerations of amounts of stores, insulation and ventilation.
I cannot guarantee that anyone following my method precisely will get the same successful results as me, in all locations and with all strains of bee and any with any other variables for that matter. But it does work for me and would only need small modifications should I change my location or the climate were to change appreciably from the present fairly wide range of conditions.
I would like to hear from anyone who follows the same regime and gets widely differing results. I think they are few and far between (or perhaps many and close together!). Or hear, even, from others that find a similar system works for them too.
Regards, RAB
PS Sorry to those that think the above too verbose but read carefully, by those interested in the technicalities of beekeeping, may give a good insight to the underlying principles behind my choices.
Even so condensation would be inevitable unless there is ventilation of some kind to allow the several kilograms of water, produced by metabolism by the bees during the winter months, to be dissipated from the hive atmosphere.
The worst place for this condensation is undoubtedly directly above the cluster. Nevertheless, it cannot be seen to be a good situation where there is with a dry ceiling while the walls are running with water. Ventilation is the key to the second problem and may be arranged in several ways - top bottom, side or any combination of the different options for each.
I can go on until I am blue in the face (and there will still be some (lots, probably), who ignore what I say, or argue that I am wrong). Yes it is a free country, everyone has personal choice in the matter under discussion and I don't expect everyone to copy me exactly. All I can do is recount what I do (which to me seems *****-proof) and works! Well it works for me.
I have experienced WBCs (soilid floors); Nationals, with and without a super, over solid floors; Standard Nationals, with and without a super, over with OMF; 14 x 12 with solid floors and OMFs; and Dartingtons with OMF.
I have progressed with all these formats and have settled with 14 x 12 frames over OMF as the best all round combination/compromise which, when used with top insulation and no top ventilation, gives me an *****-proof method of over-wintering. Not perfect but as good as I can arrange. ***** proof because it works for me.
I give no top ventilation at all as I have found it totally unnecessary with an OMF. Agreed the amount of winter stores consumed with an OMF is more than with a solid floor, but as always, there are other things to take into account. I reckon that a couple of kilos of stores (~2kg sugar fed in the autumn) is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned as my colonies will always have more than sufficient stores to keep them going through the winter months of any normal UK winter. That excess is likely used up with early brooding which, to me, is a good thing (the early spring build-up).
My argument for this is that the honey crop is produced only with an excess of foraging bees (over three weeks old, after emergence). Too few foragers is a certain recipe for slow build up and a reduced or even non-existant excess (the harvest). Therefore I wish to encourage the bees to produce offspring which will ready as foragers for the strong early flow (OSR in this area).
So my recommendation is a 14 x 12 single box or a standard brood with super over, as a minimum - I live in Lincolnshire and I accept minimum sizes may vary for other locations/hive formats, etc. Remember, this amount of stores is for over-wintering and most of the early spring build-up ready for an early crop off the OSR in this area. Even so, I have had poor crops off the OSR usually traced back to colonies still building up while the flow was strongest - yes, I miss out sometimes as I don't have enough hives to reinforce a good number of production colonies to be sure of that 'plenty of excess foragers over brooding requirement'.
As regards ventilation, there are several ways of arranging this. Top, bottom, side or any combination of the various those methods employed. I find that no other ventilation is required to keep the colony dry when an OMF is fitted. All my hives are on wooden stands about 300mm, or more, high. This almost certainly means that the bottom ventilation of the OMF is always well in excess of the minimum required. I do attenuate the ventilation in severe weather conditions but only on selected colonies - the rest are left open all winter. The cost is minimal - remember it is damp, not cold that is the bees' worst enemy. A couple of kilos of feed is a quid and a half; a replacement colony is a great deal more cost (plus loss of any potential harvest)
It is a universal quality of fluids and density, that changes of density cause convection currents. It is almost universally true that the lower the temperature, the higher the density (water is one example which bucks this trend - that is why ice forms on the surface and the bottom layers remain at 4 degees Celsius -a fortunate example for the development/evolution of living organisms as we know them).
So there is very little exchange of hive atmosphere downwards (the upper layers are warmer and therefore less dense) - but from my experience, still more than enough to prevent condensation occurring inside the hive.
I also add some insulation to the sides of some hives and see it as doing nothing but good (cf polyhives). You may note that some of Finman's hive parts are 30mm thick - in excess of the Normal National by over 50% (30mm cf 3/4 inch <or 19mm> or even the reduced thickness, to 18mm, of many hives now) which must be a good advantage for his climate.
The above is obviously not the only way to get the job done. All I can say is my colonies do not normally have damp inside the hives (no damp walls or mould on outer frames) and over-winter as well as I can manage from the considerations of amounts of stores, insulation and ventilation.
I cannot guarantee that anyone following my method precisely will get the same successful results as me, in all locations and with all strains of bee and any with any other variables for that matter. But it does work for me and would only need small modifications should I change my location or the climate were to change appreciably from the present fairly wide range of conditions.
I would like to hear from anyone who follows the same regime and gets widely differing results. I think they are few and far between (or perhaps many and close together!). Or hear, even, from others that find a similar system works for them too.
Regards, RAB
PS Sorry to those that think the above too verbose but read carefully, by those interested in the technicalities of beekeeping, may give a good insight to the underlying principles behind my choices.
drstitson
Queen Bee
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well put RAB. OMF for ventilation and insulation above crownboard seems the sensible way to go and is what i will be doing for my first winter with the only modification being my modified crownboards to encourage convection currents and insulating inside my 2 dadants (first snow visible at home today apparently) - my UK national is now hopefully too full to have any space at sides.
eric
House Bee
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Wow Oliver
You sure can Rabbit-on lol get a drink of water and thanks for all that imput
You sure can Rabbit-on lol get a drink of water and thanks for all that imput
Polyanwood
Queen Bee
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Although I liked your advice RAB, my message about insulation is that probably there is too much worrying about it.
The number one killer of bees over Winter is starvation - we need to check our bees regularly.
After that I worry about varroa, nosema, damp and mice. Cold comes far behind as a worry. I successsfully over Wintered small nucs in plywood boxes with no insulation last year and it was very cold for a long time.
The number one killer of bees over Winter is starvation - we need to check our bees regularly.
After that I worry about varroa, nosema, damp and mice. Cold comes far behind as a worry. I successsfully over Wintered small nucs in plywood boxes with no insulation last year and it was very cold for a long time.
rae
Field Bee
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There is a key point to remember when you are dealing with condensation: it happens on cold surfaces. Think of windows - old single paned ones had condensation because the pane touching the air in the room was cold. Modern double glazed ones have a warm inside pane, and although the humidity is the same, there is no condensation.
So....
If you have an uninsulated roof, the crown board will be cold. Warm air from the cluster will hit the inside face of the crown board and condense. Thus, you should ventilate, either by OMF or the old way with matchsticks.
If you insulate the roof, the crownboard will be warm. Water will not condense on it. You may get condensation on the lower walls, but it won't be above the bees, which is good from the bees pov. You still need the OMF to allow the condensed water underneath the bees to evaporate.
+1. I have one hive out of 6 that is light (ish) on one side. They'll be OK as long as we have a reasonable winter. I'm giving them a lump of fondant at the weekend, just to preserve supplies. The rest of the hives are a struggle to heft and will be fine.
Last winter I had one hive insulated and one hive not, both on OMF. The insulated hive had no mould at all on the crownboard. The uninsulated hive had lots of mould on the top side of the crownboard, and a bit on the bottom - because of water condensing on the crownboard. All 6 hives are getting 20mm foil faced kingspan in the roof this week-end, which will improve matters hugely.
So....
If you have an uninsulated roof, the crown board will be cold. Warm air from the cluster will hit the inside face of the crown board and condense. Thus, you should ventilate, either by OMF or the old way with matchsticks.
If you insulate the roof, the crownboard will be warm. Water will not condense on it. You may get condensation on the lower walls, but it won't be above the bees, which is good from the bees pov. You still need the OMF to allow the condensed water underneath the bees to evaporate.
+1. I have one hive out of 6 that is light (ish) on one side. They'll be OK as long as we have a reasonable winter. I'm giving them a lump of fondant at the weekend, just to preserve supplies. The rest of the hives are a struggle to heft and will be fine.
Last winter I had one hive insulated and one hive not, both on OMF. The insulated hive had no mould at all on the crownboard. The uninsulated hive had lots of mould on the top side of the crownboard, and a bit on the bottom - because of water condensing on the crownboard. All 6 hives are getting 20mm foil faced kingspan in the roof this week-end, which will improve matters hugely.
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I had just posted the same problem on a site, back here in the U.S. Looking if others feel
the apriguard had somthing to do with the dye off I had in front of hive. Also pushing out dead brood. It cleared out the bottom deep also, they move up to the top hive.
After I removed the treatment the hive seams to be returning to normal. The brood that
were born during this four week treatment did'nt last long . You can smell this stuff 12 ft. away. I feel I gased my bees to kill a few mites. Trying to kill a little bug on a big bug.
the apriguard had somthing to do with the dye off I had in front of hive. Also pushing out dead brood. It cleared out the bottom deep also, they move up to the top hive.
After I removed the treatment the hive seams to be returning to normal. The brood that
were born during this four week treatment did'nt last long . You can smell this stuff 12 ft. away. I feel I gased my bees to kill a few mites. Trying to kill a little bug on a big bug.
