Government Response to Petition

[Garry R]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/624402?reveal_response=yes
Flim flam.......................

 

[boywonder]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/624402?reveal_response=yes
Flim flam.......................

You say that, Garry, and I'd not be first in the queue to defend this, or any other government's position...

... But I think the response is good, and the solid points it makes are almost inarguable.

It is correct of them to say that (whatever we might want to infer/assume) that 1) country of provenance and 2) honey authenticity are mutually exclusive... and cannot be conflated (I'm sure there is some fabulous honey that comes out of China).

For large honey packers, the nigh-on impossible challenge of labelling blended honey (where the countries of origin may vary constantly) is discussed, and is the real challenge, it seems

I signed this petition - but the response has given me food for thought.

Is the answer not to change the Honey Regs to mandate that any honey made from blends of honeys from different countries needs to be called "Blended Honey" .... and to mandate (as is currently the case) that all honeys originating from a single country of origin have a named country.

"Honey" thereby being the de-facto premium product, and "Blended Honey" being its poor cousin (caveat emptor etc...) ?? ...

Just a thought, anyhow, but to slam the response is a kneejerk reaction.

 

[Erichalfbee]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/624402?reveal_response=yes
Flim flam.......................

Yes....I agree

 

[Newbeeneil]

You say that, Garry, and I'd not be first in the queue to defend this, or any other government's position...

... But I think the response is good, and the solid points it makes are almost inarguable.

It is correct of them to say that (whatever we might want to infer/assume) that 1) country of provenance and 2) honey authenticity are mutually exclusive... and cannot be conflated (I'm sure there is some fabulous honey that comes out of China).

For large honey packers, the nigh-on impossible challenge of labelling blended honey (where the countries of origin may vary constantly) is discussed, and is the real challenge, it seems

I signed this petition - but the response has given me food for thought.

Is the answer not to change the Honey Regs to mandate that any honey made from blends of honeys from different countries needs to be called "Blended Honey" .... and to mandate (as is currently the case) that all honeys originating from a single country of origin have a named country.

"Honey" thereby being the de-facto premium product, and "Blended Honey" being it's poor cousin (caveat emptor etc...) ?? ...

Just a thought, anyhow, but to slam the response is a kneejerk reaction.

Well put Boywonder but the problem would then be what is blended honey?
Blend of countries, counties, apiaries or hives? Not an insurmountable problem I’m sure.

 

[Beegarden]

Until there is a BIG publicity splurge informing the blissfully unaware public, that some of the supermarket honey is not providing them with a healthier sugar substitute, nothing will change. That can't be done until laboratories can successfully prove that honey is being adulterated. At our Zoom meeting last month we had a speaker from a local food analysis company, and when pushed, stated that the fraudsters are always one step ahead; as you all probably know already, they use ingredients which are so chemically similar to the real thing, that they can't be separated in the analysis. As an aside, he did say that they once found that vegan burgers had been unwittingly packaged in meat boxes and vice versa, and had to be recalled. Oops.

 

[robinharman]

I am actually going to say the petition is a waste of time - where will it really get us?

The public don't read the honey labels, including Waitrose Dutchy Organic Honey and Rowse Organic Honey. I take jars of these on talks and the public really don't know they are from foreign lands until it is pointed out that they say EU and Non EU or a mix.

So do we really expect them to spot it when it says Produce of Romania (the Waitrose) already? Do they still buy it thinking it is from King Charle's estate in England? Of course they do

It will never make any difference to the 79p a jar buyers anyway.

I have a feeling the packers may simply start adding a small bit of UK honey so the table reads 'Produce of England, Bulgaria, Vietnam and China' and we will see a lot more of 'Packed in the UK' in big letters.

I think the only real way to distinguish our product is a large sticker on the front saying 'UK honey' 'British honey' etc in the same way as the Red Tractor Scheme.

Just perhaps the BBKA should take the lead and do something like that, which would be more useful.

 

[ericbeaumont]

what is blended honey?

Tricky. If I take honey from two of my UK apiaries and mix it, must I label it blended honey or blended UK honey? Either way, consumer confusion is inevitable.

UK honey' 'British honey' etc in the same way as the Red Tractor Scheme

I agree, Robin, that the Union flag in the shape of a flower or a bee would convey a simple message, and is an idea that even the BBKA could work to achieve. It would certainly be more prominent than the current requirement to state Produce of UK.

 

[Jules59]

"The Government disputes assertions that honey imports to the UK are being adulterated on an industrial scale. Allegations in the media that a small number of specific blended honeys sold in the UK were fraudulent have been fully investigated by the relevant Local Authorities and concluded that there was insufficient evidence to indicate fraud or non-compliance. We are confident the honey regulations and enforcement of those regulations are fit for purpose but acknowledge honey is a complex natural product and analysis to determine if honey has been adulterated can often be challenging. That is why Defra has a programme of research dedicated to honey authenticity where it is actively working with the FSA, FSS, and Government Chemist to provide further clarity to those carrying out monitoring and enforcement checks of honey, to protect consumers and legitimate businesses. This programme focuses on dissemination and knowledge transfer, supporting work on analytical testing methods, ensuring method fitness for purpose and standardising approaches."
This to me says that Local Authorities lack the capability to detect honey adulterated by modern scientific means and so can prove nothing. Defra has at last realised there is a problem and is, belatedly, trying to develop a practical and effective methodology to detect the sort of adulteration that currently requires things like NMR for analysis.
Or am I reading too much into the flim flam (sic)

 

[Darryl]

Yes....I agree

Massive step forward for mankind from Sainsbury's?
Their 75p jars of "honey?" are now labelled as "produce of China" a fact that we all knew but was concealed under the "produce of EU and non EU countries". They've always sold this tat under the latter description, at least now they are admitting that the tat originated in China.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Massive step forward for mankind from Sainsbury's?
Their 75p jars of "honey?" are now labelled as "produce of China" a fact that we all knew but was concealed under the "produce of EU and non EU countries". They've always sold this tat under the latter description, at least now they are admitting that the tat originated in China.

That's good news. Do people know what Chinese honey is?

 

[Darryl]

That's good news. Do people know what Chinese honey is?

Yes 75p per jar as opposed to £5+ for proper stuff.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes 75p per jar as opposed to £5+ for proper stuff.

No. I meant do they know what is in Chinese honey ?
Do sainsbury say it’s adulterated rubbish on the label?

 

[Darryl]

No. I meant do they know what is in Chinese honey ?
Do sainsbury say it’s adulterated rubbish on the label?

Doubtful, I'm not sure anyone knows for certain. Possibly a trace of honey topped up with syrupy sugary stuff? No don't we'll never find out for sure.
Sainsbury don't say it's adulterated rubbish but 75p per half pound jar gives a clue.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Local Authorities lack the capability to detect honey adulterated by modern scientific

Yes, not only are the current assays unable to prove definitively that honey is fraudulent, but even if definitive testing were available, the limited funding and workload of current local authority and central .gov funding would probably limit pro-active action.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Do people know what Chinese honey is?

Let's not tar them all with the same brush: it was Murray McGregor (who knows more about this than all of us put together) who pointed out that some Chinese honey is fine.

Mind you, if you look at the very shallow climb of a graph showing the increase in Chinese beekeeping, and another showing the impressively steep increase in honey production...

 

[Mabee]

There is an episode of Rotten on Netflix (I think), called Lawyers, Guns and Honey and looks at honey adulteration in the US mainly but looks at the lab testing done in Germany and how they are keeping up with trying to identify fake honey. Also the lengths fake producers go to in order to get around import laws and therefore labelling, interesting watch!

 

[Erichalfbee]

There is a Life Scientific podcast about food fraud and the way to spot it is based around developing a genome library of the real thing. Anything extra that appears in the analysis indicates fraud. You can't do that with honey which doesn't have a standard

 

[Garry R]

The way things are going with honey jar prices it will be cheaper to buy the honey from the supermarkets and pour it down the sink and wash them out and refill with your own honey relabelled correctly, BUT does that count as a USED jar?!!! Or an adulterated jar?

 

[madasafish]

The way things are going with honey jar prices it will be cheaper to buy the honey from the supermarkets and pour it down the sink and wash them out and refill with your own honey relabelled correctly, BUT does that count as a USED jar?!!! Or an adulterated jar?

You mean I can get a jar of honey for under 37p?

 

[JamezF]

You mean I can get a jar of honey for under 37p?

Well, not honey, no...

James