e-petition to have convicted rioters lose their benefits..

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And almost 50,000 signed up to the idea that TV presenter Jeremy Clarkson should become prime minister..................................................

All convicts "loose their benefits".......... wives. sons and daughters however do not!


Which side of the railroad do you live on?

This kind of Political debate surely has its own forums and what has it to do with keeping bees? Overcrowded prisons probably have some likeness to overcrowded hives and poverty has its likeness to bee diseases
I expect your ilk would suggest a dose of petrol for both!
 
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icanhopit said:
This kind of Political debate surely has its own forums and what has it to do with keeping bees? !
Click to expand...

I suggest you review your postings, before considering others.

I have battled against far more over "off topic chat" as per title

"Chat about anything and everything not connected to Bees and Beekeeping"

:sifone:


PS Hows your wife, LOL
 
There is pack mentality going on with regard to the riots. Not those that riot but knee jerk reactors slagging them off. Jumping on band wagons calling for water canon and public humiliation etc. Wrong.

Poll tax riots. Any different - nope. Miners strike riots - nope. The ONLY difference was that these effected more of us and in a shorter period of time. People that whine about these looters and rioters should have a good long think about what history shows us before saying silly things.

When governments squeeze and squeeze and squeeze and remove rites and privileges and ways of life in a bloody minded no negotiation way the poorest are the first to be effected. And I mean the poorest financially and the most poorly educated. As time goes on more and more are effected and eventually if enough are affected then everyone kicks off. Libya for example.

Take a good long look at what's going on. Think for once outside the box and forget specifics and lose vengeful forum pack mentality like those so called armchair analysts idiots on the news. And I predict this is just the beginning. As this idiotic no negotiation government increases it's grip and more and more are forced out if business, into poverty and perhaps start losing their homes you'll all start getting angry.

Oh sure there will be some of you that go on about teaching them a lesson but I would reiterate my point. Not the big picture. The bigger picture is that this is only the beginning. Even just now Nick Clegg - it's nothing to do with lack of police, and the cuts that we are going to introduce are not going to have and effect on our ability to police. Erm clearly. Mr Clegg the expert in law enforcement on the streets.

And get your voting pens out because if I'm right, which history shows I am, we won't be looking to Clegg and Cameron for very much longer.
 
If it were funny I'd be laughing. All commentators on TV etc saying they don't understand why the riots are happening.

Not hard if you think: MPs have been helping themselves outside of the law, as has been seen, and in the main have got away with it; bankers have been helping themselves to obscene bonuses, and still are, despite the havoc they wrought, and are getting away with it; media moguls can defy the law in the pursuit of profit, and get away with it. Why shouldn't those who are rather less privileged think they can help themselves too?

Add to the above equation the riots in the Middle East, Tunisia=good, got rid of a bad Government; Egypt=good, got rid of a bad Government; Libya=good, we even sent in our troops to help the rioters. All the above to get rid of corrupt Governments helping themselves and not their people.

And Cameron wonders why we have riots? 

Strange, I haven't heard any of the above on the media? Why not?
 
As cuts have hardly started yet, the argument fails.. And look at the list of those arrested... Postmen , millionaire's child etc..

As we can't afford the current welfare state as it stands, it is going to get much worse.

A simplistuic one cause answer is of course wrong. Low level criminality and no respect for anyone but themselves account for a lot.

Or does beating up and stealing from an injured pedestrian count as a protest?

Taxpayers are unlikely to take kindly to paying people to do nothing and receive a litany of complaints about it...Welfare depends on taxpayers' consent.. Taxpayers are being squeezed.

I doubt there is much store of sympathy...
 
As cuts have hardly started yet, the argument fails.. And look at the list of those arrested... Postmen , millionaire's child etc..
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Thats not correct - that is a sweeping statement. The cuts may have only just started however people are already stretched financially. What you mean is not that the cuts have hardly started to have an effect, but rather they have hardly had an effect on you personally yet.

I am stretched financially and I do not know anyone who isnt, and I know a lot of people. I used to run my own business and we were all suffering. Half of my friends have lost their jobs. Your statement does not take account of pre-emptive measures by businesses. Sacking some of the workforce to reduce costs and burdening those left. Tesco have done just this when they reduced all managerial roles and asked for voluntary step down to team leaders- LLoyds have done just this as have other major organisations. Tesco are employing still but on zero hour contracts. And these are huge huge organisations. So please dont imply that the cuts have hardly had any effect. Perlease.

"The Scum" as they are referred to atm are those at the very bottom of the food chain. Postmen are being made redundant in huge numbers here.

And as for your comments on Taxpayers and those that benefit you are again woefully out of touch. "Welfare depends on tax payers". Tax is not an option you pay it by law not by choice. Because if you had a choice I doubt many would pay it. Benefits are not an option either. They are a human rite. A symptom of our stupid culture at times but none the less its the law and largely necessary. People will abuse the system no doubt. But if they are able they often will, thats human nature. I dont condone it nor these riots/looting but I am not naive enough to think its due to "scum being scum".

I assure you that the more people these cuts and this government affect the more people will be involved in actions just like these.

Sadly those that call for "water canon" - "sterilisation" etc . . will not change matters any time soon. And will inflame the situation.

If Cameron had to halve his wage because "I" said so, he would soon kick off. If "I" sacked him because he was a pillcok he would kick off. If "I" decided he was surplus to requirements he would kick off. Why is he different from anyone else.

Its easy for people to say these people are scum in one broad sweeping statement like they know everything about everyone involved. Stupid. Pi**ed off maybe, Fu*&$£ off, I dont doubt it. But scum? Really? Hardly.
 
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If it weren't so tragic it'd be funny - poor and not very bright people riot, and pinch the things society has told them they need, so we stop their income........
And so they are now even poorer, so what will they now have to do to survive? Same thing goes for the lunacy of throwing them out of their homes...

I think it really sums up the deep imbalances and sickness in our society - as has already been said, we sell them the empty dreams of consumerism, those in power display appalling standards of behaviour, and are bright enough to "play the system" and get away with it, and we now grizzle when we reap the whirlwind.

All the time we allow ostensibly respectable people to do things like schmoozing for pesticide companies whilst purporting to be acting for a bee association then we really shouldn't moan..... it's wrong, it's immoral, and to my mind should be rewarded with tar and feathers...... When we've sorted out those who should be, by dint of their privileged positions, setting an example, we can then turn our attention to the poor and stupid......
 
"Benefits are not an option either. They are a human rite"

I'd have to debate that one with you. A consequence of a fair and democratic society perhaps, but certainly not a human right. You harangue the current government as if it had any choice. Or are you suggesting we return to an overspending, overbearing Labour government that encouraged work shyness and in many cases meant people were better off not working.

I accept, and psychologists tend to agree, that for many they were caught up in the pack mentality, and their moral compass was more easily swung. However I believe the core of the trouble were scum (definition: a low, worthless, or evil person). You seem to object to labelling, I see nothing wrong with, it doesn't necessarily imply that their condition or behaviour was entirely their fault, it simply reflects their actions. I would suggest that society would not be worse off without them, therefore they are worthless.

I am not sure of the solution, but welfare reform has to be a start, and somehow instilling in these people a sense of work ethic.
 
If it weren't so tragic it'd be funny - poor and not very bright people riot, and pinch the things society has told them they need, so we stop their income........
And so they are now even poorer, so what will they now have to do to survive? Same thing goes for the lunacy of throwing them out of their homes...
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Precisely - and when they go ape, we as a society, and being prompted by the press, will turn on the government as a whole. Its so predictable its tragic.

When you remove everything from people who have very little you remove hope. And when you do that you increase their anger.

Two examples of poor people that I have had in my life:

1.
While working in London my boss took on a young female apprentice. We got on well as she was very down to earth. One day when I asked her what she was planning for the weekend she said - get drunk on Saturday and on Sunday its nicking. When I asked her what she meant she said she was going to steal car radios. I questioned her morals and said what on earth gives you the rite. "Well its their own fault if they leave it in the car innit, it just shows they want it to be stolen". Shocking I know. However it was her way of life in the social group she was in. She then sold them to pay for things her and her family needed. She wasnt old enough to get benefits. And this was 1987. She could not believe I didnt get it.

2.
A friend could no longer take her sons behaviour. He had gotten a job and was doing well but got laid off from his work after the Christmas period. Try as he might he could not get a job. I tried for him, she did, and he most certainly did. But the local area had nothing. His schooling was appalling, I know because I had something to do with the school involved. Anyway she finally had enough of his frustration and anger at having no money and gave him an ultimatum. He was just over 18 by this point. So he was able to claim benefits. But its not as easy as all that. They force you to come in and sign for them. At first every two weeks. Then every week as time goes on. He had to pay for travel to this place. No buses and too far to walk. And they would give him busfare to get back home. As there were no buses they gave him no money. His mother could not afford to keep her car on the road to take him. In the end they refused to pay him benefits any more unless he came in to sign for them and proved he had been spending the week looking for work. By buying news papers, which he could not afford, and by looking on the internet which he did not have or by using the library which did not exist. So his benefits were stopped. His mother had to ask him to move out. The council had no homes for him. So he became homeless. He lived in a tent in the local woods, and had another tent with all his belongings in. One day he returned to his tents to find them ransacked and empty. All his stuff gone. He snapped. His thinking "if someone can steal my stuff then I am going to steal what I want from people". And so he did. He was arrested a few months later and was sent to prison. He languished there, warm, safe, fed, no responsibility, sky, playstation. Came out, again nothing from benefits and his mother again had to have him removed.Again prison. And thats where he now is. Now I have known him since he was 12. His mother is wonderful. He was wonderful. He is now tainted for life. This all happened in two years. He went from the most happy, funny, caring person to a thieving criminal. Because he was scum?

Nope, because he was forced into an unacceptable situation with which the only tools he possessed to deal with it were, anger, frustration with the stupid benefits agents, and a total overwhelming frustration with how unfair life seemed with no way of winning. No hope. None. So he fought outside of the rules and unfortunately it worked.
 
Storm™;162356And as for your comments on Taxpayers and those that benefit you are again woefully out of touch. "Welfare depends on tax payers". Tax is not an option you pay it by law not by choice. Because if you had a choice I doubt many would pay it. Benefits are not an option either. They are a human rite. A symptom of our stupid culture at times but none the less its the law and largely necessary. People will abuse the system no doubt. But if they are able they often will said:
Thanks for the measured response. You appear to have "scum" on the brain.. where did I mention it?


"Benefits are not an option either. They are a human rite"

Oh dear. oh dear oh dear.

You are going to learn some harsh lessons. Benfits are not a right.. they are paid for by taxpayers..

About time you (and millions others ) realised they are NOT a right.

Edit: some councils are already planning to evict any council house tenants found guilty in the riots.
Click to expand...
 
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Its hard to feel sympathy for those "underprivileged" who have to steal trainers or X-box games to survive.

They and indeed the arsonists who think that Nov 5th has come early deserve everything they (legally) get.

Absolutly zero to do with political protests such as the poll tax and miners strike.

Everything to do with greed.
 
SimonB - It is a human rite to expect a certain level of living. Sustenance (food), warmth and shelter. After that a potential to progress and grow, this gives hope and provides a potential for people to aspire for greater things.

There is so much about the benefits system that even those that work within it do not know. But little things like - still having to pay bills. You do not live for free, or at the tax payers expense totally. Food isnt free, though some get vouchers. And food is expensive. Stuff isnt free. Or on the flip side some have learnt to live so frugally that they do not need to work. They get enough benefit to live like that long term. Its all to cock.

As for your statement "I would suggest that society would not be worse off without them, therefore they are worthless." is as pathetic a statement as I have ever heard. I cannot imagine what kind of aloof out of touch elitist would embarrass themselves by making that statement out loud but I hope you are never, nor are, in a position of authority over others Simon. Sorry Simon but honestly that is a seriously silly statement to make unless it were the 1920's.
 
So if we stop the benefits and evict the people from the council property what happens to them!!

Its right they should be prosecuted and its down the courts to deal with them and hard in my opinion even if it will cost us more in the end.

If we create yet another underclass our problems will only get worse.
 
madasafish said:
Thanks for the measured response. You appear to have "scum" on the brain.. where did I mention it?


"Benefits are not an option either. They are a human rite"

Oh dear. oh dear oh dear.

You are going to learn some harsh lessons. Benfits are not a right.. they are paid for by taxpayers..

About time you (and millions others ) realised they are NOT a right.

Edit: some councils are already planning to evict any council house tenants found guilty in the riots.
Click to expand...

I believe they are a rite. I am not on benefits btw before your superior comments head that way. However I see the good and bad they do. I believe that because, I have a clue. You clearly do not. It is a rite to have food, shelter and hope. Throwing people out onto the streets is laughable for two reasons. 1. Because you clearly believe it a viable option. 2. Because it will turn a lot of people against those that seek to calm this all down. People will turn on the government just as quickly when these people are forced to fight back to survive. With no home and no food they will feel anger and injustice. Rightly or wrongly they will. Then it will kick off. Then the human rights argument will occur and it will all be a huge mess.

Besides its all words - the wording was - if these people who have done this are found to be living in council accommodation they MAY be evicted, not will be evicted. May be evicted lol. People listen but they do not hear. Its a threat they will almost dare not carry out.
 
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