BBKA magazine recommending open feeding?

[JamezF]

Sounds like I should just read the wrapper and compost the magazine...

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sounds like I should just read the wrapper and compost the magazine...

James

you would learn a lot of things more useful that way

 

[Somerford]

It actually shows the quality of the recruiting and the lack of oversight by the ‘executive’ is the BBKA to recruit an editor who clearly doesn’t understand beekeeping .

The whole lot have become nothing more than a political environmentalist group rather than a proper beekeeping organisation

And allowing stupid ideas to be promoted shows they are completely out of their depth.

It’s an embarrassment .

S

 

[JamezF]

It actually shows the quality of the recruiting and the lack of oversight by the ‘executive’ is the BBKA to recruit an editor who clearly doesn’t understand beekeeping .

I wonder if perhaps the attitude isn't more that "as we state that the articles don't represent the views of the BBKA, there's really little need to edit them".

On the other hand, the BBKA promotes itself as existing (in part) for the education and training of new beekeepers. I can't see how that squares with publishing articles promoting bad or poor practice unedited.

James

 

[Ian123]

It actually shows the quality of the recruiting and the lack of oversight by the ‘executive’ is the BBKA to recruit an editor who clearly doesn’t understand beekeeping .

I’d suggest the executive may well have been impressed with the depth of his knowledge……….One could infer in many areas it surpassed theirs

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

a case of the blind being led by those lacking of wit

 

[Newbeeneil]

don't ask - like a cancer, the NBU is slowly being taken over by BBKA dogma

Just had a email conversation with a SBI, he is with the consensus on here. "Totally irresponsible and frankly surprised the editor doesn't know better"
But as we have said, I doubt it has been edited.

 

[pargyle]

I think we tend to forget that this forum (after many years now of becoming established) has attracted people who actually have thought about their beekeeping, who innovate, investigate and don't accept some (or in many cases MOST) of the dogma that has been passed down from Wedmore etc. There are still bee books being published (let alone the BBKA magazine) that put forward ideas that, as far as the combined knowledge of this forum is concerned, are long past their sell by date.

We have shared a wealth of knowledge between us - explored our own ideas, debated the good and the bad and have often been directed to the scientific studies of our craft that are not always visible unless you know what to look for and where to find them.

The forum was born out of a desire to break the mould established by the BBKA and the restrictive practices they imposed on anyone who questioned the 'established' ideas and methods.

We are still, very much in a minority - enlightened by past stalwarts like Pete Little and others now gone and many present contributors who provide wisdom and insight that I rarely find in beekeeping circles outside of members on here.

We are the fortunate ones ... having found this place and recognised the breadth and depth of information available here. Not all beekeepers are as enlightened or seek enlightenment. LIke all things in beekeeping there are few ways that are the wrong ways ... the bees will survive much of what is thrown at them - but - and found within the back catalogue here - there are usually better ways. Although the easier path is often beekeeping by rote and following the well trodden paths that new beekeepers are often taught.

I'm rarely surprised at what I read in the BBKA magazine - it's hardly surprising that an inward looking organisation, with inward looking management and members, has a magazine with some contributors who have failed to look beyond the horizon.

Sadly, it's often the only source of beekeeping information regularly digested by many beekeepers - particularly hobby beekeepers - and it's a pity that there is not a more forward thinking and modern beekeeping magazine ...and if there was - who would buy it ?

Credit to Enrico for venturing into the realms of writing articles for the BBKA mag- perhaps more of us should take his lead and submit articles that challenge the more antiquated doctrines they permit to be published - instead of complaining about them in here - because that is equally inward looking.

 

[essex b's]

I am aware of the conventional wisdom that open feeding will encourage robbing and the spread of disease. I am also aware of the chasm (understatement!) between the regular posters on here and the prominent members of the BBKA. However, I would ask one question.
Why does open feeding (of sugar syrup) encourage robbing and disease spreading any more than the occupants of many hives meeting up and feeding on a particularly attractive tree or shrub in early spring?.
I know from personal experience that many trees and shrubs in my own garden absolutely hum with bees in spring. These bees must be from numerous hives; my own apiaries are some distance away, and so the opportunity to spread disease must exist.
Perhaps I am missing something. For the record, I do not open feed, but I do believe that a pragmatic approach to life (and beekeeping) will always trump a dogmatic one.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I am aware of the conventional wisdom that open feeding will encourage robbing and the spread of disease. I am also aware of the chasm (understatement!) between the regular posters on here and the prominent members of the BBKA. However, I would ask one question.
Why does open feeding (of sugar syrup) encourage robbing and disease spreading any more than the occupants of many hives meeting up and feeding on a particularly attractive tree or shrub in early spring?.
I know from personal experience that many trees and shrubs in my own garden absolutely hum with bees in spring. These bees must be from numerous hives; my own apiaries are some distance away, and so the opportunity to spread disease must exist.
Perhaps I am missing something. For the record, I do not open feed, but I do believe that a pragmatic approach to life (and beekeeping) will always trump a dogmatic one.

I would say the difference is volume. Open feeding causes a feeding frenzy on a large volume of food. Feeding from single flowers on a tree is feeding on a minuscule volume in comparison. Therefore disease transmission via a large volume is significantly greater than from a single flower.

 

[fian]

I would say the difference is volume. Open feeding causes a feeding frenzy on a large volume of food. Feeding from single flowers on a tree is feeding on a minuscule volume in comparison. Therefore disease transmission via a large volume is significantly greater than from a single flower.

Is there a trail pheromone similar to ants?
A cloud of foragers, which direction does it take? The strongest hive, the weakest, the closest?

 

[pargyle]

I am aware of the conventional wisdom that open feeding will encourage robbing and the spread of disease. I am also aware of the chasm (understatement!) between the regular posters on here and the prominent members of the BBKA. However, I would ask one question.
Why does open feeding (of sugar syrup) encourage robbing and disease spreading any more than the occupants of many hives meeting up and feeding on a particularly attractive tree or shrub in early spring?.
I know from personal experience that many trees and shrubs in my own garden absolutely hum with bees in spring. These bees must be from numerous hives; my own apiaries are some distance away, and so the opportunity to spread disease must exist.
Perhaps I am missing something. For the record, I do not open feed, but I do believe that a pragmatic approach to life (and beekeeping) will always trump a dogmatic one.

You have clearly never seen the effect that leaving an open source of concentrated food in the immdiate vicinity of an apiary causes. It's mayhem .. bees are opportunists and it's not just your bees that will find it - within no time at all every bee within miles will be there. There is carnage as bees crawl over each other and fight to get at the food source.

I made the mistake, once, and left a small tub of cappings and honey with the lid loose outside when I was extracting .. only whilst I shut the kitchen door - and forgot to bring it inside. 10 mins later when I remembered .... I can't describe the boiling mass of bees that resulted and the number of dead bees left behind when dusk arrived. Nothing I could do would stop it ... and this was well away from the apiary. I've also accidentally left a brood frame of honey I took out of a hive propped against the hive ... same result.

Bees in that close proximity are going to be passing any disease or parasites to one another - but that's only part of the problem with open feeding !

 

[user 819]

One only has to try and clean a super el fresco (it matters not if 100% dry), then one will see the massive difference between forna one thinks is very busy and then the mass of 1000's of honey bees that appear at the cleaning station.
As Neil says it is the sheer volume /throng of bees that increases, with direct open feeding the dangers are not just possible infected bees but any one feeding honey stores risks that of being laden with virus spores.

 

[essex b's]

I would say the difference is volume. Open feeding causes a feeding frenzy on a large volume of food. Feeding from single flowers on a tree is feeding on a minuscule volume in comparison. Therefore disease transmission via a large volume is significantly greater than from a single flower.

I accept what you say, but would respectfully suggest that the presence/absence of disease in a contacting individual is the limiting factor, rather than the volume of contacts. For example, my whole family were down with Covid over New Year, but I am pretty sure we were not in contact with hundreds of infected individuals, it only took one. I guess what I am saying, is if there is disease in an area, it may eventually spread to other colonies, although I accept that the spread may be quicker if large numbers of contacts are made quickly.
On the subject of volume, whilst I accept that a feeding station may attract many bees, a large tree may well contain a far greater amount of "feed" over a much greater time frame than a couple of kilos of sugar in an open feeder.
I may be completely wrong on this one, but I have noticed a tendency on here to jump on, in particular, the BBKA in a kind of feeding frenzy. I should add that I am a member, but not a supporter, of the BBKA, in the same way I am a member of this forum.

 

[JamezF]

Why does open feeding (of sugar syrup) encourage robbing and disease spreading any more than the occupants of many hives meeting up and feeding on a particularly attractive tree or shrub in early spring?.

Open feeding can encourage robbing because feeders might go looking for other sources of food nearby. I've read (mostly US I think) beekeepers suggesting that the solution is to open feed some distance from the hives. Whether that's true or not I have no idea because I wouldn't open feed in the first place.

There are other problems associated with open feeding however. For example you don't know that you're only feeding your own bees. There could be another beekeeper's bees turning up, or feral bees. In fact you don't even know that you're only feeding honey bees. Wasps, ants, hornets and others will surely turn up as well. All in huge numbers.

So really you have no idea what's going to turn up at the feeders and some visitors are sure to be carrying something you don't want in your hives, or perhaps spreading between your hives. In all likelihood there will be fighting, insects will die and bacteria/spores/fungi/whatever carried both on the outside and inside will circulate very easily in the syrup solution.

There's also the problem that stronger colonies may get a disproportionately greater share of the food than the weaker ones when in fact you might want to ensure that the weaker colonies definitely get sufficient.

James

 

[essex b's]

One only has to try and clean a super el fresco (it matters not if 100% dry), then one will see the massive difference between forna one thinks is very busy and then the mass of 1000's of honey bees that appear at the cleaning station.
As Neil says it is the sheer volume /throng of bees that increases, with direct open feeding the dangers are not just possible infected bees but any one feeding honey stores risks that of being laden with virus spores.

I don't think anyone is advocating the open feeding of honey, however I am aware that many experienced members of this forum are in favour of using "old black comb" in bait hives, which must surely increase the risk of transmission of disease spores

 

[pargyle]

I may be completely wrong on this one, but I have noticed a tendency on here to jump on, in particular, the BBKA in a kind of feeding frenzy. I should add that I am a member, but not a supporter, of the BBKA, in the same way I am a member of this forum.

Only when they publish such outrageously bad information in articles that (in theory) they should have control over. Would you expect anything else ?

 

[JamezF]

On the subject of volume, whilst I accept that a feeding station may attract many bees, a large tree may well contain a far greater amount of "feed" over a much greater time frame than a couple of kilos of sugar in an open feeder.

Some (don't know if all) flowers stop producing nectar once pollination has occurred, and honey bees can apparently tell if a flower has been pollinated so they don't tend to visit them. I guess that helps to restrict the number of potential contacts with "residues" from other bees.

James

 

[Newbeeneil]

I accept what you say, but would respectfully suggest that the presence/absence of disease in a contacting individual is the limiting factor, rather than the volume of contacts. For example, my whole family were down with Covid over New Year, but I am pretty sure we were not in contact with hundreds of infected individuals, it only took one. I guess what I am saying, is if there is disease in an area, it may eventually spread to other colonies, although I accept that the spread may be quicker if large numbers of contacts are made quickly.
On the subject of volume, whilst I accept that a feeding station may attract many bees, a large tree may well contain a far greater amount of "feed" over a much greater time frame than a couple of kilos of sugar in an open feeder.
I may be completely wrong on this one, but I have noticed a tendency on here to jump on, in particular, the BBKA in a kind of feeding frenzy. I should add that I am a member, but not a supporter, of the BBKA, in the same way I am a member of this forum.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by volume. I mean that 2 thousand bees feeding on a litre of syrup are much more likely to pass on disease to multiple others than 2 bees feeding on a millilitre of nectar in a flower.

 

[JamezF]

I don't think anyone is advocating the open feeding of honey, however I am aware that many experienced members of this forum are in favour of using "old black comb" in bait hives, which must surely increase the risk of transmission of disease spores

I use old comb in my bait hives and am aware of the potential to pass on disease that way. It's not a perfect solution, but the frames I use spend a few days in the freezer first in an attempt to kill off as many of the nasties as possible, and I wouldn't use comb that I knew had come from a colony with a an obvious disease problem or a dead-out.

It's also considered good practice to keep swarms in a quarantine apiary until they're known to be disease free, which should cover the unintentional introduction of disease to a swarm via the comb.

James