Asian Hornet APP

[OldFarm]

Of course you have the right to an opinion. But if you voice your opinion on the forum you must accept the right of others to challenge it and challenge its credentials.

Not an unhealthy approach given that velutina is not established in the UK. So long as beekeepers look after their hives in their normal diligent manner then the arrival of velutina will make itself clearly known in good time to take appropriate action. In those areas where there have been out breaks then additional monitoring is a prudent step.

Precisely the argument for using wick based bait stations as so eloquently posted by Erichalfbee. Dispense with traps altogether.

I'm surprised you even raised the subject with them. FC is not appropriate for the UK and has never been suggested as such because we have no established infestation.

Maybe I'm daft, but I think it's reasonable to expect all beekeepers to be able to identify an AH, know how to monitor, trap and report, and to understand the importance of bycatch release. Sadly far too many beekeepers don't have this basic knowledge.

FC may have a place in action against AHs at some point. Some people will use it whether it's appropriate or not. It's illegal. Got it. There is limited research, the best I could find was baited protein pellets: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10339917/. My point is that if something like FC is to be used it needs to researched and that will take time. There was a cluster of AH nests in Kent last year that were exceedingly difficult to access (I hope the NBU found them all), FC might be appropriate there.

 

[Karol]

Maybe I'm daft, but I think it's reasonable to expect all beekeepers to be able to identify an AH, know how to monitor, trap and report, and to understand the importance of bycatch release. Sadly far too many beekeepers don't have this basic knowledge.

How many is far too many and where do you get your raw data to back up your statement? Have you interrogated a representative sample of beekeepers to make that deduction?

FC may have a place in action against AHs at some point.

When there's an established infestation such as in France and parts of Spain and Portugal. Not relevant to the UK.

Some people will use it whether it's appropriate or not.

I'll let you choose the adjectives that describe such people. If these people are resident on mainland UK then I can't think of any adjectives that are remotely complementary.

It's illegal. Got it.

it's illegal to catch, release and triangulate which is another reason why wick based bait stations should be deployed instead of traps.

There is limited research, the best I could find was baited protein pellets: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10339917/. My point is that if something like FC is to be used it needs to researched and that will take time.

Fortunately we have a first hand experiential account from Mazzamazda.

There was a cluster of AH nests in Kent last year that were exceedingly difficult to access (I hope the NBU found them all), FC might be appropriate there.

There's still no evidence of any nest in the UK successfully producing sexuals or any evidence of UK propagation, ergo no evidence of velutina being established in the UK.

 

[fian]

There's still no evidence of any nest in the UK successfully producing sexuals or any evidence of UK propagation, ergo no evidence of velutina being established in the UK.

According to comment #291 about the 2023 statistics, that is not completely true.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

successfuly producing them would mean that sexuals have emerged and left - still no evidence of that happening

 

[Bettenham]

it's illegal to catch, release and triangulate which is another reason why using velutina traps instead of wick based bait stations should be deployed instead of traps.

Sorry, Not sure I understand this - can you clarify for me please.
I have decided on bait stations in places where I can monitor regularly. Probably going out mid to late March. Hopefully this is the right way forward.
If or when one is seen - is it best to report via the app and leave it alone to carry on feeding or should I catch it, unsquished and freeze?
I will be using trappit in the station.
Thanks

 

[OldFarm]

How many is far too many and where do you get your raw data to back up your statement? Have you interrogated a representative sample of beekeepers to make that deduction?

When there's an established infestation such as in France and parts of Spain and Portugal. Not relevant to the UK.

I'll let you choose the adjectives that describe such people. If these people are resident on mainland UK then I can't think of any adjectives that are remotely complementary.

it's illegal to catch, release and triangulate which is another reason why using velutina traps instead of wick based bait stations should be deployed instead of traps.

Fortunately we have a first hand experiential account from Mazzamazda.

There's still no evidence of any nest in the UK successfully producing sexuals or any evidence of UK propagation, ergo no evidence of velutina being established in the UK.

My sample pool: I attended meetings at several bee associations, spoke with AHAT team members at several associations and attended various meetings and presentations. Was it a representative sample, probably not, but given how long the BBKA have been flogging the AH story there shouldn't be any beeks who don't get the basics.

According to Nigel Semmence at the BBKA AH update on 17 February, the areas of concern for this are:
Plymouth where 3 AHs found that were not related to a known nest, could be solo visitors or indicate a nest that has not been identified.
Yarm, a nest destroyed there that was found to have produced males.
Kent & East Sussex, AHs not belonging to known nests found (so again solo visitors or undiscovered nest), and 5 nests produced gynes.
The session was recorded, should be on Youtube, check it for yourself.

I am grateful for Mazzamazda's account, he's put a lot of effort into working out the best system and lots of people have been talking about it. I would just like to see a FC study conducted that would satisfy scientists and if appropriate put in place the legislation needed to make it a viable method of treatment. Any insecticide left in the environment is going to be bad for something, but it's not always possible to remove the nests after destruction of the inhabitants.

2023 was a surge year there are likely to be more AHs arriving from France than last year. I wonder how long the NBU will be able to cope and I would like to more evidence of plans in place for when they can't.

 

[fian]

successfuly producing them would mean that sexuals have emerged and left - still no evidence of that happening

OldFarm said:
According to Nigel Semmence at the BBKA AH update on 17 February, the areas of concern for this are:
Plymouth where 3 AHs found that were not related to a known nest, could be solo visitors or indicate a nest that has not been identified.
Yarm, a nest destroyed there that was found to have produced males.
Kent & East Sussex, AHs not belonging to known nests found (so again solo visitors or undiscovered nest), and 5 nests produced gynes.
The session was recorded, should be on Youtube, check it for yourself.

 

[Mint Bee]

. I would just like to see a FC study conducted that would satisfy scientists and if appropriate put in place the legislation needed to make it a viable method of treatment. Any insecticide left in the environment is going to be bad for something, but it's not always possible to remove the nests after destruction of the inhabitants. going to happen

And this post demonstrates the naivety of your knowledge as;

a) using FC approach requires deliberate release of non native species if formulated into an official treatment - see #340
b) Fipronil when formulated into the custard needs to be used immediately as is inactivated in the presence of the egg protein, leading to a rapid half life and therefore no activity after nest destruction.
c) to get Fipronil licensed as a formulation than can be mixed just prior to dosing isnt going to happen. its not the responsibility of DEFRA, NBU, VMD or one of the other government agencies. Its down to dirty capitalist's who only do the research and a license application if there is money to made. Ultimately this is the harsh reality for all medicines developed and licensed. No return on investment for FC, I'm afraid.

Only way FC is going to be used against AH is for individuals to do it, when its appropriate to do so. As soon as some starts boasting about using this treatment on social media, I can see them being made an example of by NBU / VMD

 

[Sutty]

If you capture a non native species, they should be destroyed, not release. applies equally to AH, signal crayfish, grey squirrels and any other species listed as non native.

Does it count as release if it has been fatally poisoned?

 

[OldFarm]

Sorry, Not sure I understand this - can you clarify for me please.
I have decided on bait stations in places where I can monitor regularly. Probably going out mid to late March. Hopefully this is the right way forward.
If or when one is seen - is it best to report via the app and leave it alone to carry on feeding or should I catch it, unsquished and freeze?
I will be using trappit in the station.
Thanks

Putting a monitor somewhere you can look at it frequently is the best thing. Monitors don't trap, you just have to observe. If there are AHs in the area they should find it within half an hour. If you miss the first photo opportunity don't worry it will be back soon. Trappit is great. At the moment all AHs seen will be queens, a good opportunity kill them, or report on the App if you are squeamish.

From May onwards it's more likely to be workers that you see, they need to be reported to the NBU so they can be tracked back to then nest.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Does it count as release if it has been fatally poisoned?

You wouldn't need to release it if you didn't capture it. As I understand it the tracking teams were marking the hornets while the feed at bait stations. I'm sure a dap of FC could be applied in the same manner.

 

[OldFarm]

And this post demonstrates the naivety of your knowledge as;

a) using FC approach requires deliberate release of non native species if formulated into an official treatment - see #340
b) Fipronil when formulated into the custard needs to be used immediately as is inactivated in the presence of the egg protein, leading to a rapid half life and therefore no activity after nest destruction.
c) to get Fipronil licensed as a formulation than can be mixed just prior to dosing isnt going to happen. its not the responsibility of DEFRA, NBU, VMD or one of the other government agencies. Its down to dirty capitalist's who only do the research and a license application if there is money to made. Ultimately this is the harsh reality for all medicines developed and licensed. No return on investment for FC, I'm afraid.

Only way FC is going to be used against AH is for individuals to do it, when its appropriate to do so. As soon as some starts boasting about using this treatment on social media, I can see them being made an example of by NBU / VMD

You don't have to catch AHs to apply FC, it can be dotted on their thorax while they are feeding. They are not aggressive when feeding.

I would like to know how long it is before the Fipronil is deactivated. What is the threat to anything that enters the nest (after seeing a woodpecker nesting in an old AH nest) or eats the dead insects. I'm asking the question because I believe people will use this method quietly and discretely to protect their hives. I'm not promoting it, I just want to know the consequences.

If you read the study I linked to, the fipronil was put in protein pellets. The hives that were being predated were closed for a couple of hours in the morning and the pellets left at the hives, the hornets took the pellets. After feeding time the pellets were removed and the bees released. It wasn't a permanent solution, it killed the larvae, so effectively a brood break and predation was slowed.

 

[Amaranth]

Bettenham, if you see an AH on your bait as early as March, then it will be a queen so kill it (and keep, as you say, to report) right away. Any brood she has will die from lack of food, so there is no point trying to track a queen to her nest. In later summer, it will be only workers visiting while the queen remains in the nest, so by then NBU would want to start tracking from your bait, and a report with photo would be the way forward. At some point there will be a cross over but I am not aware that we have any guidance about when exactly that is. In May…….. I think I’d still kill it, (and report) but watch VERY carefully over the next few hours or days, and even put out additional bait stations, to make sure there weren’t others, in which case in retrospect it was a worker, and tracking is appropriate. They may firm up on guidance on the timing of the crossover. Perhaps it will depend on the weather and on how far south you are.

 

[OldFarm]

Bettenham, if you see an AH on your bait as early as March, then it will be a queen so kill it (and keep, as you say, to report) right away. Any brood she has will die from lack of food, so there is no point trying to track a queen to her nest. In later summer, it will be only workers visiting while the queen remains in the nest, so by then NBU would want to start tracking from your bait, and a report with photo would be the way forward. At some point there will be a cross over but I am not aware that we have any guidance about when exactly that is. In May…….. I think I’d still kill it, (and report) but watch VERY carefully over the next few hours or days, and even put out additional bait stations, to make sure there weren’t others, in which case in retrospect it was a worker, and tracking is appropriate. They may firm up on guidance on the timing of the crossover. Perhaps it will depend on the weather and on how far south you are.

Workers start emerging in May. Queens continue to forage, but for how long seems variable. The latest they caught a queen foraging in Jersey was mid July.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you read the study I linked to, the fipronil was put in protein pellets. The hives that were being predated were closed for a couple of hours in the morning and the pellets left at the hives, the hornets took the pellets. After feeding time the pellets were removed and the bees released. It wasn't a permanent solution, it killed the larvae, so effectively a brood break and predation was slowed.

The point of FC is to kill the queen. That’s why protein pellets don’t work.

 

[Bettenham]

If you capture a non native species, they should be destroyed, not release. applies equally to AH, signal crayfish, grey squirrels and any other species listed as non native.

So.... we should be using velutina traps not bait stations??? Or does that apply only early in the season when it's only going to be Queens trapped?

 

[OldFarm]

The point of FC is to kill the queen. That’s why protein pellets don’t work.

Two completely different systems. There isn't much research on fipronil and Asian Hornets, the pellet system was the only one I found. There is no research on FC.

 

[OldFarm]

So.... we should be using velutina traps not bait stations??? Or does that apply only early in the season when it's only going to be Queens trapped?

We should be using monitors, that way no bycatch is harmed. If AHs are found to be in the area, set traps, and inspect regularly. If you have a trap with bycatch only, release it. If you have a trap with AHs and bycatch, put it in the freezer for 10 minutes, check the insects are not moving and shake out the bycatch if you can, hopefully it will recover. Return the AH to the freezer to kill it.

 

[Bettenham]

We should be using monitors, that way no bycatch is harmed. If AHs are found to be in the area, set traps, and inspect regularly. If you have a trap with bycatch only, release it. If you have a trap with AHs and bycatch, put it in the freezer for 10 minutes, check the insects are not moving and shake out the bycatch if you can, hopefully it will recover. Return the AH to the freezer to kill it.

another reason why using velutina traps instead of wick based bait stations should be deployed instead of traps.

I fully agree with you on this process and it is how I'm going to proceed. What confused me is this statement from Karol who has been my guiding light so far on how we tackle AH but it sort of flies in the face of his previous guidance? Oh ......... hang on! I just read and re read this sentence - I interpreted completely the other way around!!! I think it means use bait stations not traps! Sorry to waste everybody's time on a wet and dismal Sunday evening!
Now ....... grey squirrels - could have a field day around here!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Two completely different systems

Yes. Not much point to one is there ?