A Welsh Flow Hive Harvest

[For want of a better word]

Karol seems to be talking sense

My first " real" job was training as a lab. technician in a large teaching hospital... when I did my three month stint in Bacteriology, the consultant used to say that we would not have a ward full of sick children if they banned dummies..... pretty much the same conditions as present in a dirty flowframe if the dummy* had been dipped in honey

* that is a baby pacifier for our non English followers

Nos da

 

[Tremyfro]

Karol seems to be talking sense

My first " real" job was training as a lab. technician in a large teaching hospital... when I did my three month stint in Bacteriology, the consultant used... to say that we would not have a ward full of sick children if they banned dummies..... pretty much the same conditions as present in a dirty flowframe if the dummy* had been dipped in honey

* that is a baby pacifier for our non English followers

Nos da

The wards were full of sick children because some had broken bones, some weren't immunised and were suffering because of it, some had illnesses for which the cure was unknown, because parents neglected some of them, and abused some of them....and because breastfeeding was much maligned. Bottle feeding accounted for many sick children.
I think your comparison of a flow frame with a baby's dummy just about sums you up.
Hanging your hat on Karols peg.
We will see if there is any truth in his warnings of infection by some unknown bug. The interesting thing is that no matter how many times the lid is off my jar of honey..with dogs in the kitchen...chickens in the garden....and summer flies flying about....no one becomes ill from botulism or anything else.

 

[Karol]

With all due respect Tremyfro, you've only had one harvest.

Honey has amazing preservative powers but only if the water content doesn't get beyond a critical point. That's how mead is made - from fermentation from 'good' bugs.

I would rather you didn't see someone hurt to prove 'my peg' as you call it. I would rather that you anticipate and prevent through appropriate hygienic practices. It's your choice what you do at the end of the day including making this an issue of pride.

But just so that you know - I know two people who have had to answer professionally for killing babies through contaminated products.

Personally I don't know what all the fuss is about. Using clean equipment and knowing how and when to best clean it properly? How hard is that?

 

[Tremyfro]

With all due respect Tremyfro, you've only had one harvest.

Honey has amazing preservative powers but only if the water content doesn't get beyond a critical point. That's how mead is made - from fermentation from 'good' bugs.

I would rather you didn't see someone hurt to prove 'my peg' as you call it. I would rather that you anticipate and prevent through appropriate hygienic practices. It's your choice what you do at the end of the day including making this an issue of pride.

But just so that you know - I know two people who have had to answer professionally for killing babies through contaminated products.

Personally I don't know what all the fuss is about. Using clean equipment and knowing how and when to best clean it properly? How hard is that?

Well in truth I'm not the one making the fuss. I am happy to follow the recommended advise from the Flow team.
When we look at the way honey is extracted commercially with machines...I am certain those machines are not cleaned after each batch of frames...yet I'm also sure the commercial beekeepers feel they are following best practise. If you look at crush and strain...how clean would honey be from that process?
I do think that some of your posts come dangerously close to scaremongering...I think it is unlikely that beekeepers, using Flow frames, are any more at risk than some other methods of extraction of killing babies.
However, it can never be a good thing to be complacent so you can be sure that I will be very careful to ensure that the Flow frames are cleaned and stored safely.

 

[For want of a better word]

comparison of a flow frame with a baby's dummy

Where is our Finnish friend when you give out a good line like that?


Nos da

 

[Millet]

comparison of a flow frame with a baby's dummy

Where is our Finnish friend when you give out a good line like that?


Nos da

He obviously is more mature than you, live and let live, Trem likes the flow hive, me and many others do not however many do, i have never tried it nor will i try it, just ditch the snide remarks as it makes you look a argumentative pedantic facetious fool.

 

[Karol]

Well in truth I'm not the one making the fuss. I am happy to follow the recommended advise from the Flow team.
When we look at the way honey is extracted commercially with machines...I am certain those machines are not cleaned after each batch of frames...yet I'm also sure the commercial beekeepers feel they are following best practise. If you look at crush and strain...how clean would honey be from that process?
I do think that some of your posts come dangerously close to scaremongering...I think it is unlikely that beekeepers, using Flow frames, are any more at risk than some other methods of extraction of killing babies.
However, it can never be a good thing to be complacent so you can be sure that I will be very careful to ensure that the Flow frames are cleaned and stored safely.

I promise you Tremyfro I am not scaremongering - I am trying to help.

The paediatric fatalities were TPN related with the products manufactured under incredibly stringent and licensed 'sterile' conditions. Microbes have a habit of catching people out when least expected and I guess that's the message I'm trying to get across.

Using poor hygienic practices in orthodox extraction to compare the Flow hive to is not a cogent argument and I'm not sure it's relevant. The systems are that different. May I also remind you that botulism in paediatrics as well as vulnerable adults caused by contaminated honey came from honey produced in the 'orthodox' way. So bad orthodox practice isn't excused but that's not the topic of this thread.

The Flow team are learning on the hoof primarily because they have had terrific success and have brought their product to market in record time. That quick entry into the market space means that people such as you are test guinea pigs. I doubt very much that the Flow team have validated their frames for 'cleanliness' under stressed conditions which is why I have concerns about the patency of the advice that they give (not cleaning between harvests where the frames remain in situ). Maybe my doubt is misplaced and they have done the work. In which case my concerns would be pleasantly allayed and I can go and climb under my rock again.

Looking back over the postings in this thread I wonder if I've explained the science behind my concerns and the reason why Flow hives are different to orthodox extraction?

At the crux of it is the ability of the honey to absorb atmospheric water without becoming so dilute that its preservative effects are lost.

So for example, a 70Kg batch of extracted honey with a moisture content of 18% can absorb 1.4Kg of water and still come in at 20%. A 5m x 5m x 2.6m extracting room with the door closed will hold approximately 1.1Kg of atmospheric water so extraction is unlikely to undermine the preserving properties of the honey. Processing one batch after the other in succession without cleaning the equipment is not likely to pose a microbiological challenge as the preserving efficacy of the honey won't be compromised and the honey will effectively keep the equipment sanitised. The caveat here is that the batches are processed in quick succession. The preserving efficacy of the honey will be lost if the equipment isn't cleaned between batches where there is an extended interval between batches.

I'll take a stab and guess that the volume of the trough in the Flow frame is about 2 litres which will hold approximately 0.034g of water at any given time. 1g of honey left in the trough after harvesting (i.e. just enough to provide the thinnest of films on the contact surfaces) at 18% only has to absorb 0.02g to hit 20%. There is already enough moisture present in the trough to take the honey out of spec and create conditions for growth. As the trough is open to the atmosphere the honey will continue to absorb water until it becomes saturated. If the frame isn't cleaned between harvests then the trough could go several weeks which would be plenty of time for growth to occur.

I hope that helps to explain the difference as I perceive it between the systems and why I think best practice for the Flow hive would be to have the frames cleaned after each harvest.

Anyway Tremyfro. I genuinely wish you every success with your Flow hives. I have strayed into the territory of becoming a bore (again) so I'll endeavour to retire from this thread and leave you to contemplate next season.

 

[Tremyfro]

I do understand what you are saying Karol...after all my entire career has been in the medical world.
I will be ensuring my frames are safe.
The 'trough' is not open to the atmosphere as such. The only opening is a tiny slit just behind the cap. The rest of it is tightly fitted together and I expect the bees have sealed any parts where surfaces meet too.
I have been thinking whether taking a swab and culturing it would be of any value. I'm not sure how to get hold of the Petrie dish with culture medium. It would be of interest though.
The Flow team have taken extraordinary steps to help existing beekeepers and new beekeepers to start beekeeping, how to look after the bees and how to use the frames. I don't know of any other bee equipment company which has gone to such lengths. They run a Facebook page, training course, question and answer live Facebook, a forum and will quickly get back to you to answer any question you propose. I will ask them about your concerns in regard to the trough residue.

 

[shazzer]

From the Flow Team FAQs

Does the honey in the bottom of the Flow™ frames ever go mouldy, ferment or crystallize? If so, what can I do about it?
In: Frequently Asked Questions Viewed: 7,986 times

We recommend cleaning Flow™ Frames at the end of the summer, after harvesting is finished for the year.
This is easy to do without removing the frames from the super or the super from the hive. You can squirt water into the trough and then let it drain out.
If there are still signs of dirt, mould or crystalised honey, you can use a bottle brush to loosen it and then wash out with warm water.

 

[For want of a better word]

He obviously is more mature than you, live and let live, Trem likes the flow hive, me and many others do not however many do, i have never tried it nor will i try it, just ditch the snide remarks as it makes you look a argumentative pedantic facetious fool.

Et tu Brute!!

Supposed to be fun ... but now all getting a bit boooooring... as my 14 year old would say!!!

Is there not a forum for those who like to self gratify.....

 

[Karol]

I do understand what you are saying Karol...after all my entire career has been in the medical world.
I will be ensuring my frames are safe.
The 'trough' is not open to the atmosphere as such. The only opening is a tiny slit just behind the cap. The rest of it is tightly fitted together and I expect the bees have sealed any parts where surfaces meet too.
I have been thinking whether taking a swab and culturing it would be of any value. I'm not sure how to get hold of the Petrie dish with culture medium. It would be of interest though.
The Flow team have taken extraordinary steps to help existing beekeepers and new beekeepers to start beekeeping, how to look after the bees and how to use the frames. I don't know of any other bee equipment company which has gone to such lengths. They run a Facebook page, training course, question and answer live Facebook, a forum and will quickly get back to you to answer any question you propose. I will ask them about your concerns in regard to the trough residue.

It's great that you talk to them. Shazzer's post illustrates perfectly the point being made. It also suggests that the Flow team are aware of mould in the trough. As you say the trough does get sealed and if that's with a mould in place the trough could very quickly become anaerobic from fermentation. Thank you for passing this on to Flow hive. Very positive outcome especially if they modify their advice! :0)

Gotta go - shipping my daughter off to uni (today to Cardiff)! Ohhh the drama.

 

[Tremyfro]

It's great that you talk to them. Shazzer's post illustrates perfectly the point being made. It also suggests that the Flow team are aware of mould in the trough. As you say the trough does get sealed and if that's with a mould in place the trough could very quickly become anaerobic from fermentation. Thank you for passing this on to Flow hive. Very positive outcome especially if they modify their advice! :0)

Gotta go - shipping my daughter off to uni (today to Cardiff)! Ohhh the drama.

Will do.
I hope you have a big car...everything but the kitchen sink is needed!

 

[GaryB]

I do understand what you are saying Karol...after all my entire career has been in the medical world.
I will be ensuring my frames are safe.
The 'trough' is not open to the atmosphere as such. The only opening is a tiny slit just behind the cap. The rest of it is tightly fitted together and I expect the bees have sealed any parts where surfaces meet too.
I have been thinking whether taking a swab and culturing it would be of any value. I'm not sure how to get hold of the Petrie dish with culture medium. It would be of interest though.
The Flow team have taken extraordinary steps to help existing beekeepers and new beekeepers to start beekeeping, how to look after the bees and how to use the frames. I don't know of any other bee equipment company which has gone to such lengths. They run a Facebook page, training course, question and answer live Facebook, a forum and will quickly get back to you to answer any question you propose. I will ask them about your concerns in regard to the trough residue.

Petrie dishes can be had from bee-equipment.co.uk, not sure about the growing medium though. They have a section under Microscopy.

 

[Karol]

I wouldn't advise it. Unless you know what you're doing you could be growing up some nasties (gram positive rod spores found in honey includes various strains of Bacillus).

 

[maddydog]

According to an article in the Grauniad the last uk case of infant botulism was in 2001 and was due to contaminated milk. I suspect there is more chance of an infant being killed by their parents than honey!
In a previous life I spent a fair amount of time in processed food factories. What I saw there often made my toes curl. Whilst I understand Karol's theoretical concerns I would be interested to see how the microbial/toxin load of flow frame honey compares to traditionally extracted honey at both amatuer and commercial level. In addition, I'm sure annual numbers of illness due to honey consumption compared with say, seafood or chicken, might put things in perspective.

 

[theeggman]

But I'm with Karol on this.

He's flagged up a potential issue and users and the flowhive people "should" run with it and come up with a response. It may not be a problem but isn't it better to look into it before the fertilizer hits the impeller.

 

[Tremyfro]

I beg to differ...Karol has not flagged this up.
There have been ongoing discussions about it. Here are some of the subjects discussed.
ATM the Flow team are saying that cleaning the channel with hot water and using a bottle brush to remove any debris...drying thoroughly is the cleaning method they suggest.
Research shows that honey diluted by 50% with water still retains its antibacterial properties.
Fermentation products are not dangerous.
Any bacteria present in the channel when mixed with full strength honey would be under control.
Are there comparison studies between Flow extraction honeys and commercial/home extraction honeys...in regard to bacterial or pathogens?

So please don't be under the illusion that Flow hivers do not take this seriously...probably rather more than your average honey harvester.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

This accumulation of honey in the trough seems to be theoretical rather than something consistently witnessed by owners. In the Flow™Hive website FAQ section the following was found:
We have designed the honey trough at the bottom of the frame so that any remaining honey can drip back into the hive for the bees to use. If the honey leak-back gap remains clear this works well; however, if the bees block it up some honey may remain in the honey trough after harvest. Clear the leak-back gap prior to harvest and inspect the honey trough. If the honey trough is dirty it can be cleaned from outside the hive using a bottle brush or something similar.

So there is a possibility the the bees could block the leak-back gap and the Flow™Hive team has suggested ways of dealing with it.

We must remember that the Flow Hive was designed and developed in Australia in a place (northern New South Wales) where honey flows occur throughout the year often with more honey being produced in winter than summer and I imagine the Flow Frames are more or less continually in use by the bees. It's not surprising that issues arise in different climates but Flow Hive appears to be doing its best to deal with these as and when they arise.

CVB

 

[Karol]

I beg to differ...Karol has not flagged this up.
There have been ongoing discussions about it. Here are some of the subjects discussed.
ATM the Flow team are saying that cleaning the channel with hot water and using a bottle brush to remove any debris...drying thoroughly is the cleaning method they suggest.
Research shows that honey diluted by 50% with water still retains its antibacterial properties.
Fermentation products are not dangerous.
Any bacteria present in the channel when mixed with full strength honey would be under control.
Are there comparison studies between Flow extraction honeys and commercial/home extraction honeys...in regard to bacterial or pathogens?

So please don't be under the illusion that Flow hivers do not take this seriously...probably rather more than your average honey harvester.

OK Tremyfro - I'll bite seeing as you've dangled the bait.

Show me the research that shows that honey is bactericidal at 50% under relevant conditions and across the spectrum of harmful spore bearers.

The concept that bulk honey flows will then knock any microbes on the head is naive and dangerous. It may kill vegetative forms (over 5 to 8 days) but spore formers will simply sporulate and you'll have probably one jar of honey with an abnormally high bacterial load which will make it difficult to pick up in quality checks. If by some small chance you do get botulinum growth under anaerobic conditions then sporulation will create botulinum toxin and you only need it in infinitesimally small quantities to kill plus you can't taste it which is what makes it so dangerous.

Fermentation products are not dangerous. Ofcourse not. But what about the different types of mould?

Finally if Flow hive are that serious they will have the micro study data available under different stressed conditions. Please have them provide the data. Then we'll know whether their advice on cleaning is sufficient.

 

[Truble]

I wouldn't advise it. Unless you know what you're doing you could be growing up some nasties (gram positive rod spores found in honey includes various strains of Bacillus).

It's great fun growing bacteria on petri dishes with a bacterial growth medium. One interesting experiment is to gently dab your thumb/fingers onto a new petri dish to see how many bugs your hands are currently carrying. Go wash them and repeat....you will be shocked how inefficient hand washing is. You should end up with lots of different coloured colonies wherever you left a gentle finger print, but slightly less after washing. I don't know how the new antibacterial soaps will fare, it's a while since I used to do this.
You won't be growing any anaerobic nasties like C.bot, and it matters little what you grow as long as you don't eat them! The vast majority will be totally harmless.