A Welsh Flow Hive Harvest

[Karol]

I will be taking the Flow frames off tomorrow...so I will have a better idea of what parts need cleaning, whether they need cleaning and how to clean them if it is necessary. ATM it is unknown so there is no point in making a decision if one isn't required. However, you can be sure that I will tell you either way.

Excellent - that will be really useful especially if you can post some pictures. The area that I believe needs attention is the channel/trough at the base of the frame where the honey drains into and out from.

 

[Karol]

Just out of interest Karol are you completely happy with the advice that is given out year on year, at this place and others, regarding the cleaning of extractors. Not always but often the advice is to hose them down in the garden, sometimes but not always then warm soapy wash and then rinsed off with hosepipe once more.

It's the use of garden hosepipe is the bit I am assuming you won't be happy with and just about the most unhygienic piece of equipment that could be used in any kind of food production.

The use of a garden hose pipe is fine provided that;

1. It's a hose pipe dedicated to cleaning rather than one that gets left lying around in contact with soil and especially fertilizer. Clostridium botulinum spores can get picked up from soil.

2. The hose is thoroughly drained after use and then stored dry and not sealed in a bag.

3. Before use the hose pipe is rinsed with 30L of fresh mains water per 10metres of hose pipe.

4. Washing the extractor as described is fine but it ought to be done on a hard standing non muddy area. Washing it standing on grass or soil would not be clever. Use a sheet of ply if necessary.

5. I would probably recommend a detergent wash (chlorine free) followed by a soda crystal wash before rinsing once more with water. If you have really hard water you might go to the expense of using distilled water in the final rinse. That might also help stop honey precipitating - limescale can act as a seed for crystals to grow. If you really care about the quality of the honey that you want to produce then you can test the rinse water for pH to check that you haven't left any residues of detergent/soda which will show up as being alkaline.

6. Very very important is that you then let the equipment dry thoroughly. By drying the equipment you will help prevent the growth of bacteria and moulds (plus prevent rust). The equipment should then be stored bone dry.

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks Karol I am sure we will all follow the instructions

May I add the hosepipe should be food grade.

 

[Swarm]

Anyone accusing me of not looking after my bees, not being hygienic whilst extracting it, not enjoying all aspects of beekeeping had better wind their necks in. I have openly shared my experiences about the flow frames with you all ...which I didn't need to do...then you still be in ignorance...which pretty much sums up some peoples attitude about Flow frames.

So asking a question that doesn't fit is wrong? Before I wind my neck in, all I want to know is how the honey will remain clean. If these are a serious idea, it stands to reason they are intended for more than the odd hive. If that is the case there would be a lot of free flowing honey and buckets, etc. Compared with dealing with a sealed item transported to a prepared place, I think it's a little suspect.

 

[Anduril]

Tremyfro while I appreciate and respect your views and taking your time to inform us of your experiences with regard to the Flow frames. There may be others out there who intend to sell their honey. The Flow teams intentions with the frames are also intended for the use by commercial beekeepers. This may be a pipe dream of theirs and the price of the frames at the moment in my view are prohibitive for this use. Bureaucracy being what it is the NBU will end up playing catch up. There are interesting articles in beecraft regarding US and UK experiences of the Flow frame. Please keep us informed it is very interesting.

 

[Truble]

It's precisely because honeybees can't get access to the collection channels/troughs that pulls the rug out from your post.

Which is a fair point. A thorough wash and dry should suffice. No need for extensive sterilization it won't last inside a hive. Any bacterial/fungal growth relies on moisture and nutrients being available. Conditions in the inaccessible channels of the washed dried used flow frames will be the same as in new frames, when inside the hive.

I see by asking a difficult question about mouldy wax frames being returned to the hive the usual accusation of "trolling" is rolled out yet again (yawn!). I see this accusation used frequently as an excuse to attack the questioner which neatly avoids answering difficult questions.

 

[Tremyfro]

I don't mind answering questions Swarm..not at all but some people take delight in being unpleasant. I freely admit I don't know all the answers...we have only had the frames this summer....it's all very new. However...my main reason for making the posts was to let people know that they do work...as there was a lot of doubt.

 

[nantmoel]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us all. A fellow local beek has had two on the go this season, he'll freely admit to making a few mistakes this year, but they do work.

 

[For want of a better word]

Bit like taking supers off for extraction then

​

But so much more fun for the two hive owner!!!

Nos da

 

[Karol]

Which is a fair point. A thorough wash and dry should suffice.

Should? Based on what?

No need for extensive sterilization it won't last inside a hive.

Wasn't talking about sterilization. Disinfection is something entirely different. And the reason why disinfection is required is because the principal source of pathogens that will be found in the 'excluded compartment' of the Flow frame that isn't 'part of the hive' will be the spores found in the honey that are likely to germinate once water of activation levels become favourable. Washing and drying the frames immediately after use will potentially reduce the need for disinfection. Leave it for eight hours under certain conditions and disinfection will become a must.

Any bacterial/fungal growth relies on moisture and nutrients being available. Conditions in the inaccessible channels of the washed dried used flow frames will be the same as in new frames, when inside the hive.

No they won't because by definition they're not accessible and they are made from material(s) foreign to the ones normally found in a hive and no-one yet knows what impact that may have on the nature and type of organisms that may grow as a consequence.

http://thirdworld.nl/microbiology-and-food-borne-pathogens-in-honey

I see by asking a difficult question about mouldy wax frames being returned to the hive the usual accusation of "trolling" is rolled out yet again (yawn!). I see this accusation used frequently as an excuse to attack the questioner which neatly avoids answering difficult questions.

It's not the difficult question it's the fact that you seek arguments to highjack the OPs thread. So if you want to ask the question then show a little respect and ask it in a new thread.

 

[For want of a better word]

Should? Based on what?



Wasn't talking about sterilization. Disinfection is something entirely different. And the reason why disinfection is required is because the principal source of pathogens that will be found in the 'excluded compartment' of the Flow frame that isn't 'part of the hive' will be the spores found in the honey that are likely to germinate once water of activation levels become favourable. Washing and drying the frames immediately after use will potentially reduce the need for disinfection. Leave it for eight hours under certain conditions and disinfection will become a must.



No they won't because by definition they're not accessible and they are made from material(s) foreign to the ones normally found in a hive and no-one yet knows what impact that may have on the nature and type of organisms that may grow as a consequence.

http://thirdworld.nl/microbiology-and-food-borne-pathogens-in-honey



It's not the difficult question it's the fact that you seek arguments to highjack the OPs thread. So if you want to ask the question then show a little respect and ask it in a new thread.

Contamination from plastics plus the probability that the Flow's hive components would not be easily made sterile and fit for purpose.. plus the fact that they are beyond the scope of most beekeepers capabilities to use made me come to the conclusion that they were not for me.

Nothing has changed and I for one will not advise beekeepers to experiment with them.

No apology

Nos da

 

[Truble]

No they won't because by definition they're not accessible and they are made from material(s) foreign to the ones normally found in a hive and no-one yet knows what impact that may have on the nature and type of organisms that may grow as a consequence.

Clap trap, the conditions will be identical whether used or new. The internal atmospheric environment in terms of relative humidity and gaseous levels is created by the bees in the hive hive. The identity of what will grow and what won't is very misleading information. Nothing should grow in the inaccessible part particularly if you are harvesting honey.

 

[Tremyfro]

Contamination from plastics plus the probability that the Flow's hive components would not be easily made sterile and fit for purpose.. plus the fact that they are beyond the scope of most beekeepers capabilities to use made me come to the conclusion that they were not for me.

Nothing has changed and I for one will not advise beekeepers to experiment with them.

No apology

Nos da

Lots of beekeepers use plastic frames and have done for years. Plastics have been used for storing food and in food production for a very long time and are considered to be safe.
You are making an assumption that the frames would be difficult to clean..although they do not need to be sterile...the Flow team are saying cleaning is not a problem...I suspect their experience outstrips yours on this subject.
How you come to the conclusion that most beekeepers would be unable to use the Flow frames is mind boggling. Especially as they are marketed as easy to use...as indeed they are.
You have had a lot to say about the Flow frames...how a buyer would be scammed...how the Flow frames wouldn't be delivered....how they wouldn't work...how bees would descend on any extraction of honey...and so on.
Now your latest is that they would be difficult to clean....which isn't true either.
You don't advise beekeepers to experiment with them...really?
Don't you think experiments have already been made?
Perhaps the Flow team are waiting for your verdict on bated breath...especially as your experience is so vast on the subject of the Flow hive...Oh No ...I forgot ...you don't have one and everything you know about them comes from utube and hearsay.
You know something....stick to giving advise about something you do know about...like beekeeping.
The Flow frames do work...which is something which you said wouldn't happen...and you were wrong.

 

[For want of a better word]

Lots of beekeepers use plastic frames and have done for years. Plastics have been used for storing food and in food production for a very long time and are considered to be safe.
You are making an assumption that the frames would be difficult to clean..although they do not need to be sterile...the Flow team are saying cleaning is not a problem...I suspect their experience outstrips yours on this subject.
How you come to the conclusion that most beekeepers would be unable to use the Flow frames is mind boggling. Especially as they are marketed as easy to use...as indeed they are.
You have had a lot to say about the Flow frames...how a buyer would be scammed...how the Flow frames wouldn't be delivered....how they wouldn't work...how bees would descend on any extraction of honey...and so on.
Now your latest is that they would be difficult to clean....which isn't true either.
You don't advise beekeepers to experiment with them...really?
Don't you think experiments have already been made?
Perhaps the Flow team are waiting for your verdict on bated breath...especially as your experience is so vast on the subject of the Flow hive...Oh No ...I forgot ...you don't have one and everything you know about them comes from utube and hearsay.
You know something....stick to giving advise about something you do know about...like beekeeping.
The Flow frames do work...which is something which you said wouldn't happen...and you were wrong.

Trefomoo ... however much you preach about you great depth of experience in the world of keeping bees and the selection of materials and containers to keep them in.... it is exclusively your personal choice.

If I should choose to keep bees in W.R.C WBC hives with metal spacers and castellations, without queen excluders, and most specifically no plastics... even to the extent of using metal rapid feeders... then that is my choice.

If you take a stance on a pile of soapboxes expect to get the odd rotten egg or tomato to be launched in your general direction!

QED

 

[Tremyfro]

Trefomoo ... however much you preach about you great depth of experience in the world of keeping bees and the selection of materials and containers to keep them in.... it is exclusively your personal choice.

If I should choose to keep bees in W.R.C WBC hives with metal spacers and castellations, without queen excluders, and most specifically no plastics... even to the extent of using metal rapid feeders... then that is my choice.

If you take a stance on a pile of soapboxes expect to get the odd rotten egg or tomato to be launched in your general direction!

QED

People without a leg to stand on always revert to name calling and insult!
The difference between us is that I haven't criticised your beekeeping or your choice of hive or your components...whereas, you have frequently done so about my choices...the beehaus, the flow....both of which are acceptable.
At no time have I preached about any depth of knowledge. I have , in general, only posted about my own experience with my own bees.
Your superior knowledge with your 100+ hives is rammed down everyone's throat and your lack of patience with any other poster is legendary.
I have only attempted to share information about the Flow frames...since so many people were interested in whether they would work.
You don't have any interest in the Flow frames...so why do you bother to post on this thread...

 

[Truble]

I have only attempted to share information about the Flow frames...since so many people were interested in whether they would work.

I think you should be congratulated for doing that. I had my own doubts about their suitability for use in the UK, but am pleased you have shown that they do work. Well done.

 

[Karol]

Likewise Tremyfro I congratulate you for sharing your experience.

I don't agree with everything that you say though. I've no wish to get drawn into the merits of using plastics as this is a complex area. Suffice it to say that food packaging has had to change over recent decades because certain plastics have been shown to be unsafe (pvc food wrap banned, BPA baby bottles banned etc). I've spent many years formulating medicines into plastics so please be patient with me on this. I've no idea what plastic Flow hive have chosen but it's worth reading this: http://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134196209/study-most-plastics-leach-hormone-like-chemicals

There is a big difference between using plastics in direct contact with honey and using plastics that are not in contact but form part of the sub structure of a hive. If one uses the Flow hive then I think it's important that the honey if it is sold makes no claim for being 'organic'.

Please do share your experience with cleaning the Flow frames. I think it will be really valuable information.

 

[Karol]

Clap trap, the conditions will be identical whether used or new. The internal atmospheric environment in terms of relative humidity and gaseous levels is created by the bees in the hive hive. The identity of what will grow and what won't is very misleading information. Nothing should grow in the inaccessible part particularly if you are harvesting honey.

You have no idea what you are talking about which makes you dangerous.

The conditions will change as a consequence of use. The hygienic risks of the second harvest will be different to those of the first. Traces of honey left in the channel/trough after harvesting will absorb atmospheric moisture and create a different environment for growth. The trough is open to atmosphere through the breathable plug and the plastic case will provide a condensable surface for any temperature difference between the hive and the atmosphere in the channel/trough.

My understanding is that the cells in the comb get lined with wax which creates a vapour barrier sealing off the environment in the collection channel/trough. Honey in the cells gets desiccated by the bees to a water content of 14-18% and a water activity level of between 0.5 and 0.7. Traces of honey left in the collection channel/trough will not be desiccated because they will be insulated from the drying activity of the honeybees on the comb.

At 80% water content the water activity level will exceed that required for both microbial and fungal growth so the collection channel does represent a hygienic risk and therefore must be appropriately and responsibly managed. The fact that the surface is a non permeable plastic means that water activity levels will remain high in the vicinity of any traces of honey and it will be those traces of honey that will carry potentially pathogenic spores.

 

[Truble]

You have no idea what you are talking about which makes you dangerous.

With a Masters degree in Microbiology (distinction). I do know what I'm talking about.
It's your posts that worry me! You obfuscate the actuality and practicality with a lot of pseudo-scientific dribble.

 

[Karol]

Microbiology has come on a long way since the 1920's.