A Welsh Flow Hive Harvest

[Karol]

Steady up Tremyfro. I haven't 'descended' on you with any rules or regs on hygiene. I have simply asked the question and responded to the ensuing discussion. If you think Milton will do the job then fine but don't be surprised if it taints the honey or indeed repulses the bees from using the frames thereafter. That's why I suggested the cleaning regimen that I did because from my professional experience it's a regimen that's most likely to achieve a satisfactory level of hygiene whilst avoiding a lot of the problems of managing plastics. That's for your benefit so you can continue to have your fun - safely!

 

[Tom Bick]

Karol do you follow this high level of hygiene with your extracting equipment, honey buckets ect and how do you sit with stored super combs sat out all winter and can be in less than perfect state come the spring.

All the beekeepers I know are very clean and safe but doubt any would go to the extremes you seem to follow.

 

[Truble]

I think you will find that Karol doesn't keep bees.

 

[For want of a better word]

MILTON ANTIBACTERIAL SOLUTION - Independence Australia
store.independenceaustralia.com/media/wysiwyg/32000110.pdf

Needs to be added to your HACCP documentation if you intend to use this for cleaning the dirty flow's hive components!
The value of natural wooden hive components is that they can be burned if infections are suspected.

Yeghes da

 

[Karol]

Don't fall into the trap Tom of conflating the two because they are not the same. There is a risk that the Flow hive won't receive the same level of hygiene as is afforded to orthodox beekeeping/extraction techniques.

Extracting equipment etc is cleaned prior to use and is generally made of more robust material that will withstand sanitizing i.e. a deep clean. I don't know of any beekeeper who would use extracting equipment that's been left lying around dirty for a few months without cleaning it first.

What's more extracting equipment that has been cleaned after use will be left in an environment that is dry so there's no water to support microbial growth.

The supers get cleaned by the bees before the bees use them so no problem there either.

Contrast that with the Flow hive. You have collection channels that can't be accessed by the bees so they can't clean them. (As seen from 2:49 on this video clip: https://www.honeyflow.com/gallery-videos/videos/p/60#ryWC92NT2Eo - note also at 3:35 honey pouring into the jar from the table surface that has leaked down the front of the comb fractured caps - note also at 8:10 no instruction to clean the frame before use; just reset the comb, and from 8:50 the use of a draining plug and again no instruction to clean the channel (or trough as they refer to it) - just reliance on the honey draining physically which isn't IMHO enough). The frames are made of plastic which can't breath so condensation is likely to be a problem as the presence of water will encourage microbial growth. After the first harvest there will be residual honey in the channels/troughs which will stay put unless cleaned and they'll need to be cleaned straight after harvesting the honey as once the bees get to work again on re-using the cells it'll be too late.

 

[psafloyd]

Your sense of humour is flawed...that would be why it is wasted on me...
You did as usual, miss the point...as did JBM....my point is that although you may view those things as of not much use...they are however, a lot of fun!
How strange that you call me a 'Welsh lass' .....
Anyway...despite your 'joshing' comments....watching the honey harvest using the Flow frames was a huge amount of fun.
Anyone accusing me of not looking after my bees, not being hygienic whilst extracting it, not enjoying all aspects of beekeeping had better wind their necks in. I have openly shared my experiences about the flow frames with you all ...which I didn't need to do...then you still be in ignorance...which pretty much sums up some peoples attitude about Flow frames.
In regard to ensuring the frames are clean for the bees next year...they are easy to clean.....you can take them apart...soak them in Milton. It's not a big deal.
And before Karol descends on me again about rules and regs...I don't sell my honey and you can be certain I won't be poisoning my family.
The Flow frames work....and that is simply the truth.

It's good to know they work. I always saw them as an interesting novelty perhaps for a bit of fun in the apiary and I'll keep an eye out for a second hand one, too.

I'm sure there will be some second hand ones about as they were not sensibly marketed and once a few people who didn't get trained have experienced the pleasures of swarming in an urban environment, they may be put off.

As for Milton, it's awful stuff. Can smell it now, just thinking of it.

 

[Karol]

I think you will find that Karol doesn't keep bees.

No but I am an associate member of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health. So either I'm comfortable that beekeepers using Flow hives do so responsibly through self regulation or I'm made to feel uncomfortable in which case I can have a little chat with some of my colleagues to see if I've understood the risks correctly. For the record I'm perfectly at ease with traditional methods and have no concerns there.

 

[Tom Bick]

I am no fan of the frames Karol and see them as a gimmick and for a few seasons a bit of fun and excitement for the beekeepers who decide to use them. The points you raise about cleaning the inaccessible parts for the bees to clean are well known but no reason a sensible beekeeper with a practical thought out solution could not solve even letting the bees have access to the parts other bees cannot reach.

 

[Hivemaker.]

After the first harvest there will be residual honey in the channels/troughs which will stay put unless cleaned and they'll need to be cleaned straight after harvesting the honey as once the bees get to work again on re-using the cells it'll be too late.

Apparently they can easily be stripped down for cleaning, so easy enough to remove the flow frames straight after draining the honey into containers, stripping them down for a good clean, remove all the wax residue etc... and then re fitting, or keep a spare set of frames to immediately replace the ones being removed for cleaning.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Apparently they can easily be stripped down for cleaning, so easy enough to remove the flow frames straight after draining the honey into containers, stripping them down for a good clean, remove all the wax residue etc... and then re fitting, or keep a spare set of frames to immediately replace the ones being removed for cleaning.

Bit like taking supers off for extraction then

 

[Karol]

Personally I love the idea of the Flow hives. I just think that as with any new technology there are tweaks and adaptations that need to be taken into account. The collection system could be improved to provide curved tubes with a screw threaded flange and a breathing vent and matched jars so that harvesting is done effectively by closed system. And I agree, it shouldn't be difficult to properly clean and sanitize the frames after harvest but it is in my view absolutely critical that it is done and not left to chance otherwise there's going to be a tragedy and either the technology will die or there'll be a massive raft of new regulations specifically for using Flow hives - neither of which are welcome.

 

[Karol]

I am no fan of the frames Karol and see them as a gimmick and for a few seasons a bit of fun and excitement for the beekeepers who decide to use them. The points you raise about cleaning the inaccessible parts for the bees to clean are well known but no reason a sensible beekeeper with a practical thought out solution could not solve even letting the bees have access to the parts other bees cannot reach.

So well known that the makers continue to show their video on their website effectively stating there's no need for cleaning!

 

[Tom Bick]

So well known that the makers continue to show their video on their website effectively stating there's no need for cleaning!

Not familiar with all the info and advice they give out but if that's the only one regarding cleaning another sales pitch from a manufacturer out to deceive their customers. It will work on the gullible but thankfully the majority will see a possible problem.

 

[Karol]

I don't think they're out to deceive - just not thought it through.

 

[Truble]

No but I am an associate member of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health. .

For which you need no qualifications in environmental health.

What I'm surprised about is all this fuss over the cleanliness of some plastic that the bees will clean up and cover in wax.
It would make more sense to be chasing up on the more prevalent habit of beekeepers who keep wet wax super frames over winter and finding many of them all moldy and discolored in the spring stick them back onto the hives for the bees to clean up fill with honey (hopefully) and then extract that honey from them.

 

[Karol]

<snip>
What I'm surprised about is all this fuss over the cleanliness of some plastic that the bees will clean up and cover in wax.
<snip>

What I'm not surprised about is some of the ignorant trolling that goes on.

It's precisely because honeybees can't get access to the collection channels/troughs that pulls the rug out from your post.

If you want to stir it up with beekeepers about bad husbandry that's your prerogative. Just do it under a different thread.

 

[Tremyfro]

I will be taking the Flow frames off tomorrow...so I will have a better idea of what parts need cleaning, whether they need cleaning and how to clean them if it is necessary. ATM it is unknown so there is no point in making a decision if one isn't required. However, you can be sure that I will tell you either way.

 

[Tom Bick]

No but I am an associate member of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health. So either I'm comfortable that beekeepers using Flow hives do so responsibly through self regulation or I'm made to feel uncomfortable in which case I can have a little chat with some of my colleagues to see if I've understood the risks correctly. For the record I'm perfectly at ease with traditional methods and have no concerns there.

Just out of interest Karol are you completely happy with the advice that is given out year on year, at this place and others, regarding the cleaning of extractors. Not always but often the advice is to hose them down in the garden, sometimes but not always then warm soapy wash and then rinsed off with hosepipe once more.

It's the use of garden hosepipe is the bit I am assuming you won't be happy with and just about the most unhygienic piece of equipment that could be used in any kind of food production.

 

[madasafish]

Just out of interest Karol are you completely happy with the advice that is given out year on year, at this place and others, regarding the cleaning of extractors. Not always but often the advice is to hose them down in the garden, sometimes but not always then warm soapy wash and then rinsed off with hosepipe once more.

It's the use of garden hosepipe is the bit I am assuming you won't be happy with and just about the most unhygienic piece of equipment that could be used in any kind of food production.

People pull frames from hives - and leave them lying against the outside of the hive or on the ground.. Or if they are forced to, on a frame stand.

All of these are unhygenic.
Bees visit the same flowers as other insects and trample over honey combs. These are unhygenic practices.
Beekeepers use any old rubbish - sticks, grass, cones , etc and puff smoke full of toxins into hives.

Don'y worry about washing with a dirty hose: lots more worse things in beekeeping and in contact with honey...usually the bees.

 

[Tom Bick]

I am not that bothered about the use of the garden hose to clean some equipment. I often think this won't look to great if there's a knock at the door for an inspection. I was just asking Karol as he has raised some good points regarding hygiene.