A Welsh Flow Hive Harvest

[For want of a better word]

Microbiology has come on a long way since the 1920's.

As has beekeeping
However the microbes that can infect us and can be transmitted via contaminated honey are still there and many have developed a resistances to even modern antibiotics.
I remain convinced that these so called flow frames can not be maintained as healthily clean as the system that the vast majority of beekeepers use.

Yeghes da

 

[Tremyfro]

As has beekeeping
However the microbes that can infect us and can be transmitted via contaminated honey are still there and many have developed a resistances to even modern antibiotics.
I remain convinced that these so called flow frames can not be maintained as healthily clean as the system that the vast majority of beekeepers use.

Yeghes da

Let us all hope you are not as convinced of this as you were that the Flow frames wouldn't work and that they were a scam.

 

[Truble]

Microbiology has come on a long way since the 1920's.

It has indeed.
If I had completed my masters in the 1920's I would now be one of the oldest people in Britain.
Since retiring from scientific research I have noted few major new developments in microbiology. Discovery of some of the antibiotic resistance genes such as MCR-1 that confers resistance to colistin being among the notable.
Colistin being the last ditch antibiotic for patients suffering with Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) infection.

However, this has little relevance to flow hive cleaning.

I can for example envisage outbreaks of botulinum poisoning in situations where appropriate hygienic measures have not been taken between harvests.

Now come on Karol, with all your hygiene training you should know that clostridium botulinum is an obligate anaerobe. Now where would you find those conditions within a hive for a gram negative bacteria with such demanding conditions to survive, let alone thrive?
I can think of one place....can you?

 

[Swarm]

Here we go again ....
Let me guess ... your arse? We've been here before and it was boring then as well

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Here we go again ....
Let me guess ... your arse? We've been here before and it was boring then as well

Steady - ladies present!

CVB

 

[Karol]

<snip>
Now come on Karol, with all your hygiene training you should know that clostridium botulinum is an obligate anaerobe. Now where would you find those conditions within a hive for a gram negative bacteria with such demanding conditions to survive, let alone thrive?
I can think of one place....can you?

When you get home do you still measure yourself against a ruler? I'd stop if I were you, you're over compensating and it's making you look foolish.

So much for your Masters in Micro with a distinction - I guess you missed the class on gram staining. You also seem to have missed the class on spores. Not particularly interested in the anaerobic conditions in the bee gut. More interested in C. bot spores in honey from environmental sources such as dirty poorly oxygenated water, soil etc and the risk of spores getting into the honey during harvest for example during windy/dusty days with lots of cow pats about.

As for plastics, see page 15:

http://www.who.int/csr/delibepidemics/clostridiumbotulism.pdf

 

[Tremyfro]

I think we must remember that honey is produced under not exactly sterile conditions in a hive anyway. The hive is open to other insects getting in, the bees regurgitate the nectar any number of times. Wood is absorbent so who is to say what it might harbour. Air is circulated....carrying whatever.
The Flow team have recommendations for cleaning the frames.

 

[Karol]

Here we go again ....
Let me guess ... your arse? We've been here before and it was boring then as well

Sorry Swarm. If it wasn't important I wouldn't bother but there's always a risk that someone might listen to poor advice and get hurt or hurt someone else.

 

[Karol]

<snip>

The Flow team have recommendations for cleaning the frames.

Well that's progress. What are their recommendations?

 

[Truble]

Not particularly interested in the anaerobic conditions in the bee gut.

Apologies for not replying in kind with a load of insults thrown in, but if you wish to discuss something rationally, please do so. I'm still intrigued as to why you think C.bot may be a problem in flow hive frames:? There are few cases of infant botulism due to honey. Non to date have involved flow hive frames.

 

[Karol]

As has beekeeping
However the microbes that can infect us and can be transmitted via contaminated honey are still there and many have developed a resistances to even modern antibiotics.
I remain convinced that these so called flow frames can not be maintained as healthily clean as the system that the vast majority of beekeepers use.

Yeghes da

I think there are different risks between the two systems. Interestingly there is this in support of your convictions:

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1893/011.082.0401

That said, it may well be that Flow hives might reduce microbial contamination for smaller producers if the frames are handled correctly and I can see a situation where that might be so. Partly because local producers may not have easy clean extraction kit that's in optimum nick.

All said and done though, I don't think you can beat traditional methods because the one advantage that traditional beekeeping has is that sealed comb is a naturally preserved system which will remain so until it's cracked open.

 

[Karol]

Apologies for not replying in kind with a load of insults thrown in, but if you wish to discuss something rationally, please do so. I'm still intrigued as to why you think C.bot may be a problem in flow hive frames:? There are few cases of infant botulism due to honey. Non to date have involved flow hive frames.

C. bot is a problem in honey whatever way it's produced. I think there is greater environmental risk of contamination with environmentally borne spores during harvest and I think there are a number of issues related to the use of plastic which could be significant particularly in temperate climates. For instance, I believe it will probably take longer for the bees to desiccate the honey in a Flow frame because of its impermeable plastic structure. This may have an impact because the honey may go longer before becoming bacteriostatic thereby increasing sporal bioburden.

I can also foresee for instance that under the wrong conditions the collection chamber may become a bioreactor especially if the bleed on the cap becomes clogged.

If the collection chamber/trough is not properly managed after a harvest such that honey remains then there's a risk of fungal and bacterial biofilm growth on the surface of the plastic which may be accompanied by fermentation (as has already been reported on one of the Flow videos). Fermentation within the chamber has the potential to create anaerobic or partially anaerobic conditions.

Sanitisation isn't about getting rid of C. bot spores per se although it would help (through the washing process). C. bot spores are highly resistant and it's unlikely that sanitisation would inactivate them. However, sanitisation would impede the proliferation of other organisms that might create anaerobic conditions suitable for C. bot growth.

 

[Truble]

For instance, I believe it will probably take longer for the bees to desiccate the honey in a Flow frame because of its impermeable plastic structure. This may have an impact because the honey may go longer before becoming bacteriostatic thereby increasing sporal bioburden.

And normal wax is permeable?
Total misinformation from you again with some big words thrown in.

 

[Truble]

However, sanitisation would impede the proliferation of other organisms that might create anaerobic conditions suitable for C. bot growth.

You don't seem to have a clue about how difficult it is for C.bot spores to germinate. You are so unlikely to create that environment inside a hive that it's pretty pointless suggesting such may happen. It's contamination of honey by spores that can create a problem particularly when the spores find themselves in a nice anaerobic environment like a young babies intestines before it's immune system has really kicked in.
Fortunately it is a very rare event due to the feeding habits of bees.

 

[Tremyfro]

The Flow Team say this
To store your Flow™ Frames wash them in warm to hot water and allow them to dry thoroughly before storing them in a cool, dry, dark* location for the winter.

*The frames are uv sensitive so you don't leave them exposed to the sun.
Users of the frames have stored them outside...even in frosty conditions. Some users advocate a period in the freezer, then wrapping and storing in a cool dry place.
The channel that is much talked about...is in fact a series of parts of the frame and isn't solid in its construction.
Luckily I have an Everhot cooker....like an Aga...which is toasty warm all winter ...so my frames will have a period after washing out ...on it to completely dry them before storage.
When I think about the conditions that wax supers are kept in...I think my frames will be much cleaner.

 

[Karol]

And normal wax is permeable?
Total misinformation from you again with some big words thrown in.

You really cannot help yourself can you.

WTF has wax got to do with air convection around the frames?

 

[Karol]

The Flow Team say this
To store your Flow™ Frames wash them in warm to hot water and allow them to dry thoroughly before storing them in a cool, dry, dark* location for the winter.

*The frames are uv sensitive so you don't leave them exposed to the sun.
Users of the frames have stored them outside...even in frosty conditions. Some users advocate a period in the freezer, then wrapping and storing in a cool dry place.
The channel that is much talked about...is in fact a series of parts of the frame and isn't solid in its construction.
Luckily I have an Everhot cooker....like an Aga...which is toasty warm all winter ...so my frames will have a period after washing out ...on it to completely dry them before storage.
When I think about the conditions that wax supers are kept in...I think my frames will be much cleaner.

Thank you Tremyfro.

Do you envisage having more than one harvest between storing the frames?

 

[Karol]

You don't seem to have a clue about how difficult it is for C.bot spores to germinate. You are so unlikely to create that environment inside a hive that it's pretty pointless suggesting such may happen. It's contamination of honey by spores that can create a problem particularly when the spores find themselves in a nice anaerobic environment like a young babies intestines before it's immune system has really kicked in.
Fortunately it is a very rare event due to the feeding habits of bees.

Not talking about inside the hive. But then you don't read what's written. And your fixation on C. bot trivialises the issue and ignores the plethora of other pathogens that may cause problems.

 

[Tremyfro]

Thank you Tremyfro.

Do you envisage having more than one harvest between storing the frames?

No..not this year. We will have to see how it goes next year. This year the nectar flows have been unreliable in my area. I will take a look at the frames before doing anything to them...it may be that cleaning isn't needed...or they may need rinsing out and drying.

 

[Karol]

When I saw this video it did make me a little uneasy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5RN-ztkmn8

At 0:26 you can plainly see honey in the collection channel/trough. This is exposed and a nutrient source for bacterial/fungal growth.

Not the most hygienic harvest either what with a dog running around, bees falling into the honey and poultry in the background (1:04).

At 8:47 the presenter clearly goes on to say that the honey tasted 'sour' which to me rings alarm bells.

And what is clear from the video is that the presenter did not clean the frames including the collection channels/troughs after harvesting which I think is a disaster waiting to happen.

IMHO I think the frames have to be cleaned shortly after harvesting before the next crop is allowed to form.