A Welsh Flow Hive Harvest

[Truble]

If by some small chance you do get botulinum growth under anaerobic conditions then sporulation will create botulinum toxin and you only need it in infinitesimally small quantities to kill plus you can't taste it which is what makes it so dangerous.

The likely hood of getting the anaerobic and specific growth conditions for botulinum spores to germinate within a flow hive are infinitesimally small. You simply cannot create the degree of anaerobic conditions needed for sporulation, let alone the high pH. Clostridium botulinum will not grow in acidic conditions (pH less than 4.6), and therefore the toxin will not be formed in honey (acidic) or alongside fermenting yeasts.

I do think you are creating a bit of unnecessary scaremongering, when common sense would be a more practical approach.

 

[Tremyfro]

OK Tremyfro - I'll bite seeing as you've dangled the bait.

Show me the research that shows that honey is bactericidal at 50% under relevant conditions and across the spectrum of harmful spore bearers.

The concept that bulk honey flows will then knock any microbes on the head is naive and dangerous. It may kill vegetative forms (over 5 to 8 days) but spore formers will simply sporulate and you'll have probably one jar of honey with an abnormally high bacterial load which will make it difficult to pick up in quality checks. If by some small chance you do get botulinum growth under anaerobic conditions then sporulation will create botulinum toxin and you only need it in infinitesimally small quantities to kill plus you can't taste it which is what makes it so dangerous.

Fermentation products are not dangerous. Ofcourse not. But what about the different types of mould?

Finally if Flow hive are that serious they will have the micro study data available under different stressed conditions. Please have them provide the data. Then we'll know whether their advice on cleaning is sufficient.

It wasn't a bait.
I have only repeated some of the subjects discussed on the forum...which represents only a small number of Flow hivers. I don't know the research...it was reported by another poster. I don't know all the answers either.
I suspect the mould talked about was found in the trough during or after storage. As has already been said...the area where the Flow was created enjoy an all year round nectar flow so the frames would remain on the hive....I doubt that there would be any moulds under those circumstances.
I know you are frustrated because I can't provide the answers but you will have to wait until the answers are available. It may be that the botulism you fear may feature in the Flow frame channel.....might not be an issue at all...or the risk so small as to be insignificant....or there may be a high risk of it developing under certain circumstances.
I make my own bacon and sausages and salami and Serrano ham. I am aware of botulism. I use honey during part of the curing process. So far none of my family have died....though the risks are well known. When we see the processes that bacon and ham go through in factories...it amazes me that so many of us survive eating it.

 

[For want of a better word]

I make my own bacon and sausages and salami and Serrano ham

Where do you get your dry cure powder from?
My Usual supplier has ceased production as the VMD has licenced some of the curing substances ( ? Potassium Nitrate) to another manufacturer and they can not afford the £30,000 to have their product tested.

Thinking of getting one of thee dry cure cabinets and using oak or hickory???

Yeghes da

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My Usual supplier has ceased production as the VMD has licenced some of the curing substances ( ? Potassium Nitrate) to another manufacturer and they can not afford the £30,000 to have their product tested.

Funny old thing eh - the totalitarian state marches on and on.

 

[Truble]

It may be that the botulism you fear may feature in the Flow frame channel.....might not be an issue at all...or the risk so small as to be insignificant....or there may be a high risk of it developing under certain circumstances.

There is practically zero risk of it developing under any foreseeable circumstances in the flow hive (that is speaking with my professional microbiologists hat on). The only association of botulism and honey has been cases of infant botulism thought to be caused by spores present in the honey itself. The spores being able to develop in a babies gut between their 0-9 months of growth but not afterwards. Otherwise, as we ourselves are exposed to these spores fairly frequently we would also suffer.

 

[BKF Admin]

unfortunately I have had to ban a member in this thread as they were a member already banned and re-registered under another name.

Admin.

 

[Anduril]

Microbiologist from Yorkshire melting wax at 40oC perhaps?

 

[Tremyfro]

I make my own bacon and sausages and salami and Serrano ham

Where do you get your dry cure powder from?
My Usual supplier has ceased production as the VMD has licenced some of the curing substances ( ? Potassium Nitrate) to another manufacturer and they can not afford the £30,000 to have their product tested.

Thinking of getting one of thee dry cure cabinets and using oak or hickory???

Yeghes da

I usually buy from Tong Master....they do quite a range...organic dry cure. Although I haven't bought from them in a while as you only use a small amount. There are quite a few who sell in small amounts. Your butcher might sell you some if they dry cure their bacon. Mainly I dry salt cure with herbs(bay leaf, black pepper, thyme...Rosemary...depends on the meat/ fish) and brown sugar/honey for bacon. Also we smoke cure bacon and salmon ...using applewood....after the dry salt cure. The big hams we buy a 25 lbs leg of pork. Remove the hip bone part of the hip joint. Then immerse in a tub of salt ....a day for every lb weight. Then wash with red wine... Seal any exposed meat with lard...wrap in muslin and hang in cool breezy place for a few months....or buy from lidl for £35 ..ha ha.
You could mix your own ...you would have to work out the proportions of salt and saltpetre.
There is a lovely book you may want to get....if you are interested in the smoking process....Home Smoking and Curing by Keith Erlandson. My copy is a 1994 edition but you can still find them....if you don't have one.

 

[Tremyfro]

unfortunately I have had to ban a member in this thread as they were a member already banned and re-registered under another name.

Admin.

Oh Dear so Truble was actually Trouble!

 

[For want of a better word]

I usually buy from Tong Master....they do quite a range...organic dry cure. Although I haven't bought from them in a while as you only use a small amount. There are quite a few who sell in small amounts. Your butcher might sell you some if they dry cure their bacon. Mainly I dry salt cure with herbs(bay leaf, black pepper, thyme...Rosemary...depends on the meat/ fish) and brown sugar/honey for bacon. Also we smoke cure bacon and salmon ...using applewood....after the dry salt cure. The big hams we buy a 25 lbs leg of pork. Remove the hip bone part of the hip joint. Then immerse in a tub of salt ....a day for every lb weight. Then wash with red wine... Seal any exposed meat with lard...wrap in muslin and hang in cool breezy place for a few months....or buy from lidl for £35 ..ha ha.
You could mix your own ...you would have to work out the proportions of salt and saltpetre.
There is a lovely book you may want to get....if you are interested in the smoking process....Home Smoking and Curing by Keith Erlandson. My copy is a 1994 edition but you can still find them....if you don't have one.

Thanks for that T
Last ham ( from our own pigs) was cured with Tong Master powder, we added honey and kept the cure going in a sealed bag.... d e l i c i o u s !!!
I do hope they are still in business....

as for Truble.... JBM had him hooked as a "salmonid" from the get go!

Yeghes da

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Thanks for that T
Last ham ( from our own pigs) was cured with Tong Master powder, we added honey and kept the cure going in a sealed bag.... d e l i c i o u s !!!
I do hope they are still in business....


Yeghes da

Nice to see you two playing nicely together!

CVB

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There is a lovely book you may want to get....if you are interested in the smoking process....Home Smoking and Curing by Keith Erlandson. My copy is a 1994 edition but you can still find them....if you don't have one.

Fine gundog man Keith - lived in Wales for many years (but as you can make out from the surname - not a native) sadly died a few years ago - have quite a few of his books, knew he'd writen one on curing but never got around to getting it.

Oh Dear so Truble was actually Trouble!

Truble is an obscure old French name for a kind of fishing hook - probably the type used for catching grayling - or to give it its Latin name - Thymallus Thymallus.
I'm afraid I don't think they'll ever beat the investigator out of me

 

[Tremyfro]

Thanks for that T
Last ham ( from our own pigs) was cured with Tong Master powder, we added honey and kept the cure going in a sealed bag.... d e l i c i o u s !!!
I do hope they are still in business....

as for Truble.... JBM had him hooked as a "salmonid" from the get go!

Yeghes da

You are welcome.
I haven't done the cure for a large ham in a bag...but that would be more economical on the salt. In the box there is a lot of space with just salt as you have to use enough to cover.
I do the bacon in bags though. We like streaky bacon.....it cures well with salt and sugar mixture....no soggy bacon butties and nice and crisp.
I always used to take my bacon to the butchers for slicing but now we have a slicer. It's great for slicing loaves to go in the freezer when batch baking.
Do you cure in brine? I've never done that...though I remember flitches of bacon sitting in brine in the larder many years ago.
Salmonid...������������ love it...ha ha ha

 

[Tremyfro]

Nice to see you two playing nicely together!

CVB

Best to enjoy it...it may only last until my next post.

 

[GaryB]

You are welcome.
I haven't done the cure for a large ham in a bag...but that would be more economical on the salt. In the box there is a lot of space with just salt as you have to use enough to cover.
I do the bacon in bags though. We like streaky bacon.....it cures well with salt and sugar mixture....no soggy bacon butties and nice and crisp.
I always used to take my bacon to the butchers for slicing but now we have a slicer. It's great for slicing loaves to go in the freezer when batch baking.
Do you cure in brine? I've never done that...though I remember flitches of bacon sitting in brine in the larder many years ago.
Salmonid...������������ love it...ha ha ha

Stop it, you are making me salivate....lol. Do you sell any of your pork products? You may have a customer here.....

 

[Tremyfro]

Stop it, you are making me salivate....lol. Do you sell any of your pork products? You may have a customer here.....

Sorry no.....the family scoffs everything!
It's so easy to do though...buy a book and just follow the steps. Or these days look up online. You could be eating your own bacon in a few days!
The wonderful thing about home cured bacon is that when you fry it...it crisps up beautifully....no milky liquid gumming up the pan.

 

[Cussword]

unfortunately I have had to ban a member in this thread as they were a member already banned and re-registered under another name.

Admin.

Yay!!!

.will the other one be getting the same attention??

.

 

[Brigsy]

This thread, which I unsubscribed to for obvious reasons now has my attention again haha. Just been googling home made bacon!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Karol]

The likely hood of getting the anaerobic and specific growth conditions for botulinum spores to germinate within a flow hive are infinitesimally small. You simply cannot create the degree of anaerobic conditions needed for sporulation, let alone the high pH. Clostridium botulinum will not grow in acidic conditions (pH less than 4.6), and therefore the toxin will not be formed in honey (acidic) or alongside fermenting yeasts.

I do think you are creating a bit of unnecessary scaremongering, when common sense would be a more practical approach.

Just back from taking my daughter to uni to find Truble gone.

Normally I hate censure but in this case I support Truble aka Thymallus being banned on the grounds that his posts were irresponsible and dangerous all under the guise of being an expert in microbiology.

The greatest proportion of botulism poisoning in China has been from fermented foods. Here's more incidents of fermented foods growing botulinum:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/12/how-not-to-die-of-botulism/281649/

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5605a2.htm

Whilst it's true that C. bot won't grow in acidic pH, it's presumptuous to assume that the pH in the trough will remain at 4.6. There are too many other factors influencing pH to be confident that the pH in the trough will be universally below 4.6. So for example using a bottle brush dipped in bleach prior to use would be enough to create an alkaline pH more favourable to C. bot growth.

I really really don't like the thought of using water and a bottle brush in situ to clean the troughs. That sounds like disastrous advice as it will be really difficult to dry the trough out (whilst it's in place within the hive) and the added moisture from the cleaning process will heighten risk.

Tremyfro - I'm not frustrated - just concerned that you guys using Flow hives continue to remain safe. Plastic has never been used in this way before in beekeeping in an environment susceptible to high moisture levels, fermentation and preferential temperatures.

As for dry cure then that's a completely different process. And yes you make me feel hungry at the thought of your home cured bacon. That said, you cook bacon which helps denature botulinum toxin (if ever present).

Using honey from a Flow frame for curing meats adds another dimension. Might be prudent to use orthodox honey or honey harvested from sanitised frames until there is greater confidence in the safety of Flow frames under stressed conditions.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hope you enjoyed the Dahl birthday celebrations