Treated with Oxalic acid today.

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gavin - where does your source information on this come from ?

I would have believed that bees, whatever strain, will cluster where there are stores to be consumed...if they just stayed at the front of the hive then they would be dead by spring

regards

S

Thinking a bit more about this ... once they start up brood raising again then they are effectively stuck there until the brood hatches and will return to cluster there when it gets cold. Any forays to other parts of the hive must be smash and grab raids for stores, and, of course, to move outwards as the brood nest expands.

G.
 
G, I thought though that the cluster moved and that colonies that would do a 'smash & grab' would get chilled and depleted.

I suspect BC's thoughts in his book about this are just that - perhaps after an observation on one /two days over 1 winter.

as they say, one swallow doesn't make a summer !!

stilll, it's an interesting idea all the same.

regards

S
 
Might the cluster wander about in the early part of the winter and become fixed to one spot when they start raising brood around now? But then they have little need for stores earlier, while they are broodless. Is this wandering cluster just a myth?!

Beowulf Cooper will have seen hundreds of Amm colonies in his time, so I'll trust his powers of observation for now. Here is what he wrote on the topic:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

TIGHT WINTER CLUSTERING NEAR THE ENTRANCE

Native bees tend to cluster up for winter early. The clusters are exceptionally tight and quiet, and tend to break up late. Surprisingly small clusters, if healthy, are capable of wintering through the coldest spells, although they may fail after a wet autumn when uncapped or late-fed stores remain in the hive. Where an Italian strain would die in winter with a moderate-sized cluster, despite adequate food around it, a very much smaller native cluster can survive with vigour.

Most native strains in the autumn go into winter cluster[ed] at the front of the hive. The drier conditions near the entrance and increased opportunities for cleansing flights presumably reduce the risk of dysentery, nosema and perhaps other diseases.

Particularly in the manner of tightness and size of cluster there are big variations between strains. It could be argued that this may represent degrees of introgression of behaviour patterns derived from bees of more southern type; for instance in parts of Scotland where French bees have been imported for many years in large numbers, clusters have been noticed to be less tight, with a larger minimum winter cluster size threshold, compared to districts where no such introductions have been made. The same can be said for areas of recent Italian introductions.

------------------------------------------------------------------

A little correction [] of Philip Denwood's posthumous editing of BC's notes.

Perhaps the variation he alludes to in native stock also just reflects the fact that indigenous stock is inherently variable and imported bees, which could also be variable in their own ranges, have already been bred for uniformity. Elsewhere he writes of differences in colour of native bees with the more easterly and southerly stocks brown, sometimes yellowish underneath and sometimes with the orange spots on the edge of the first one or two abdominal segments. Quite likely that the original native bee had (and still has) this kind of variant as well as a heath variant, darker and adapted for late summer abundance rather than the spring and summer flora available elsewhere.

best wishes

Gavin
 
OA treatments postponed again, too much snow coming down at moment.
 
Is this wandering cluster just a myth?!

Perhaps but movin cluster is real. Mostly bees start to winter in lower parts. Reason is that they fill combs from up to down and cluster begin winterin in the placeIn where brood was last time.

Very often the cluster is against front wall. I think that one reason is to offend enemies.

In spring the cluster starts brooding in warmest place and it is ofcourse the upper part of the hive. When I have used electrict cabel on floor, the queen ascend down to lay near bottom.


Native bees tend to cluster up for winter early.

What is native bees? In Finland we have no native honey bees.
We have Italian bees on Polar Circle, as I have written.

Local bees must have a habit to to get ridd of their feces before they start winter rest. Then it takes 6 months to get out to make cleansing flight.
In Britain they can fly almost every month?
 
.
Here a Finnish beeresearcher Seppo Korpela has put this autumn 4 different bee strains on balance this autumn. http://www.mtt.fi/bees/jokioinen09_10.htm

Left axis is a weight loss of the hive kg. Right axis is from October to forward.

Kajander is a Finnsh beekeeper and his local breeded Italian bee.

Macedonica is from Greek and has been 2 summers in Finland.

You see that Macedonican used 7 kg food in 3 months.
I do not know what is origin of Carnicas.
 
Snowing here and just on freezing so I am waiting to do the treatment on the basis the longer this weather lasts the longer the broodless spell.

However I have to do it before the 14th as we are off on safari. :)

PH
 
Snowing here at 1145ish. Looks like serious amounts possible. About southernist bit of Lincolnshire here, so they've got it in Rutland, Cambs and Northants as well.

Regards, RAB
 
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Wall to wall sunshine in north devon,hardly a cloud in the sky,dry,temp 5c in the shade, no snow on ground.
 
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Hi Finman

What happened to the ligustica in that study - did it die in October as the Finnish winter arrived?!

Yes, in most parts of the UK they could fly approximately every month. This year they may have to stay indoors for longer, at least in the colder parts.

Finman is implying that other races also may winter against the front wall. Perhaps Beowulf Cooper had his experience mainly with Amm and ligustica and not carnica and caucasica? Anyone else seeing some colonies wintering near the door?

Poly Hive: I'm glad to see that you have postponed your safari - deepest Aberdeenshire is no place for a holiday this week! Actually, when I drove along to the Linn of Dee for a walk there was a motor home there ... maybe they are well insulated these days?

Snow is on here again, just as I'm about to head off for the football ...

G.
 
no snow either

Wall to wall sunshine in north devon,hardly a cloud in the sky,dry,temp 5c in the shade, no snow on ground.

Bright Sunshine in North Wiltshire. 4c. hard frost last night, no snow (forecast to have 20% chance on Tuesday)

No bees flying but to flies 'buzzed' me when I checked on the chickens this morning - they must be dung flies !
 
Well insulated indeed Gavin but the access was not there for where we intended to go. so we have had a quiet (and considerably cheaper) time of it here instead.

Bees winter against the walls frequently in poly of course but I can't say I ever saw my AMM colonies doing it in timber boxes.

PH
 
I did mine yesterday and by the look of the weather today it was a wise decision. It was very cold, but beautiful sunshine all day and not a cloud or a breath of wind.

All mine were near the front of the boxes apart from the Carnis who were everywhere......:(

Frisbee
 
Hi Finman

What happened to the ligustica in that study - did it die in October as the Finnish winter arrived?!
G.

Finnish winter arrives in December. I do not know what happend to ligustica.

But I do not mind, where their cluster is. Inside the hive, I hope. Sometimes it has been out and then it was sick and dead.

I press them into so small space that it makes not diffence where they are.

My opinion is that word "native" is over estimated.

We had too old gang which dreamed about real "German Black bee", which was tame and never swarmed.

Swarming is only way to honeybees to reproduce and it cannot be such a strain which does not swarm.

Just dreaming.


.

.
 
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Treated today & Candy too

Been away and back and forth from home for the past week and a half or so so today was the first chance to treat with OxA after the air warmed up (5/6 degrees isn't great but hey ho)

Clusters in middle and plenty of stores but that didn't stop me putting a late christmas present of candy on to keep them happy.

One hive was positively 'buzzing' as I separated the crown board ... and they were thickly covering over 7 frames. I just hope they survive !!

regards

S
 
plenty of stores but that didn't stop me putting a late christmas present of candy on to keep them happy.

Does that mean there may be precious little brood area for early expansion in the spring?

I regard fondant as necessary if stores are running short - there being lots of laying space for later brooding in that case. Feeding extra (fondant) unecessarily may well mean they consume the fondant and do not free up brooding space. Or, if you fed sugar in the autumn, the hive might be congested with sugar honey, as well as being short of space for brood expansion. Spring might be late this year, who knows, but there again they might be brooding heavily next month.

Just an observation and something for the new beeks on the forum to think about.

Regards, RAB
 
That is my point. If they have a full store and are eating fondant instead of uncapping comb, there may be insufficient space for accelerated laying rates when brooding starts up.

One thing we don't want is the queen laying rate being suppressed by a shortage of laying space, leading to fewer foraging bees for the first nectar flow. Just common sense when you think about it. That is the way bees have done it for millenia - until homo sapiens thinks they should do it differently.

The optimum for the bees would be nearly empty stores with maximum hatching brood as nectar flow comes on line = most nectar collected.

Yes, I know it rarely occurs and we feed thin syrup to gee them into brooding or need to watch stores closely if the nectar flow is late. But slowing them down by feeding fondant seems pretty counter-productive and OTT if there is already plenty of stores in the hive.

Anyone else have a take on this?

regards, RAB
 
So, stores presumably checked by hefting and not being tempted to take a quick look when OA treating?

I note both mine have (daily) wax capping residues on the floor so they are working their way through the honey.
 

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