Apibioxal error ....

[Newbeeneil]

Yes Shirley... the cynic in me suggests that it was just opportunist marketing ... it was never intended to be sublimated ... if I win the lottery I'm going to register neat OA ... and then make a fortune selling it as magic fairy dust !

I'm rooting for you Philip , but I suspect there would be significant pressure from interested parties to ensure it didn't get approval!

 

[pargyle]

I'm rooting for you Philip , but I suspect there would be significant pressure from interested parties to ensure it didn't get approval!

If our national beekeepers association had any wits about them they would spend a few quid of the reserves and do it ... they could sell 'officially recognised' OA for a sensible price and soon recoup their investment... clutching at straws there I'm afraid...

 

[Apple]

I'm rooting for you Philip , but I suspect there would be significant pressure from interested parties to ensure it didn't get approval!

What is fairy dust ?
PCP, also known as phencyclidine, is a very strong hallucinogen with dissociative properties that affects the senses and the perception of reality. It was first created as an anesthetic (painkiller) for surgery.

Explains quite a lot... Shirley??

 

[Into the lions den]

Trickling oxalic acid penetrates the bees keratin and in turn can be detected in bees internal organs including digestive tract, rectum and heamolymph, this causes the higher mortality of workers vs sublimation, which doesn’t penetrate keratin. Even at 2% it can penetrate keratin. Why the packet says only use once in winter. Definitely would switch to sublimation. Much better for the bees.

There is so much stuff written to promote certain methods/bees/hives/frames....etc etc etc..... I read items in bee circles with a significant dose of scepticism.
Current trends (fashions?) overpromote sublimation as it is the politically correct method of choice. Part of that is denigrating the method that went before...and worked fine. Truth is both ways work with a slight edge running in favour of sublimation. To read some writers you would think still trickling is a cardinal sin.

We still trickle (although the term itself implies slowness...it is not)...and provided the bees are strong and healthy we see very few dead bees. Sublimation would take MUCH longer for a benefit less than the extra effort.

Some colonies have turfed out some dead bees after the trickle we completed a couple of weeks ago.....but not many. All now settled back down quite happily.

Have staff who routinely sublimated in Europe. They did not like it and after completing large numbers of treatments reported feeling quite ill.

 

[ChrisS]

Trickling oxalic acid penetrates the bees keratin and in turn can be detected in bees internal organs including digestive tract, rectum and heamolymph, this causes the higher mortality of workers vs sublimation, which doesn’t penetrate keratin. Even at 2% it can penetrate keratin. Why the packet says only use once in winter. Definitely would switch to sublimation. Much better for the bees.

Did you know that VarroMed is effectively trickling-strength OA (3.2%) with a dash of formic acid? The manufacturer's instruction leaflet says apply up to 5 times in autumn at intervals of 6 days. That will probably do your colony more harm than the varroa!

 

[pargyle]

There is so much stuff written to promote certain methods/bees/hives/frames....etc etc etc..... I read items in bee circles with a significant dose of scepticism.
Current trends (fashions?) overpromote sublimation as it is the politically correct method of choice. Part of that is denigrating the method that went before...and worked fine. Truth is both ways work with a slight edge running in favour of sublimation. To read some writers you would think still trickling is a cardinal sin.

We still trickle (although the term itself implies slowness...it is not)...and provided the bees are strong and healthy we see very few dead bees. Sublimation would take MUCH longer for a benefit less than the extra effort.

Some colonies have turfed out some dead bees after the trickle we completed a couple of weeks ago.....but not many. All now settled back down quite happily.

Have staff who routinely sublimated in Europe. They did not like it and after completing large numbers of treatments reported feeling quite ill.

I don't think anyone is going to argue with you Murray .. with so many hives and so much experience against my miniscule experience by comparison I am almost reluctant to offer any comment.

I can see that, in a large commercial organisation, trickling OA will have an effective place in your armoury against varroa - carting the necessary electrical kit (in order to sublimate) around remote apiaries and the resultant time involved would have an impact upon the cost of treatment and may render it impossible. There are only a handful of gas heated sublimators available and whether the likes of the Gas Vap would be suitable for use in a large commercial operation I have serious doubts.

The additional cost of appropriate PPE and more importantly reliance upon workers, working remotely, to use it is also something to consider, without even getting into the necessary Risk Assessments and method statements required - and the ultimate censure that YOU are criminally responsible even if they do something stupid. The HSE take the view that if your employees cannot be trusted to do the job as specified then you have insufficient management in place on site and your are guilty if anything goes awry. That alone would put me off having employees using sublmation equipment. Even a whiff of OA in sublimation can make you feel very ill - treating large numbers of hive - possibly under time constraints could well lead to workers being inadvertently exposed. There is, obviously, a much reduced risk in the use of OA by trickling.

However, I still think for the smaller operator or the hobbyist, as an owner operator, Sublimation IMHO appears to be the most reliable and effective treatment for varroa .. with little (if any) perceptible effect on the bees. With the caveat that appropriate PPE is absolutely essential.

Horses for courses.

 

[Swarm]

Current trends (fashions?) overpromote sublimation as it is the politically correct method of choice. Part of that is denigrating the method that went before...and worked fine. Truth is both ways work with a slight edge running in favour of sublimation. To read some writers you would think still trickling is a cardinal sin.

We still trickle (although the term itself implies slowness...it is not)...and provided the bees are strong and healthy we see very few dead bees. Sublimation would take MUCH longer for a benefit less than the extra effort.

Very true, we should accept there is more than one way to treat bees and those who do things differently are not wrong. The so called benefits of vaping are far out weighed by the PITA carting the kit around, never mind the essential PPE required. I have the vaping gear in the shed but haven't used it for two years. Don't know about others but I found myself holding my breath anyway. Goggles, mask, filters that should be replaced more frequently than I'm guessing most are, I can understand that some choose to avoid all that and risking their own health for a simple, quick treatment that works.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Very true, we should accept there is more than one way to treat bees and those who do things differently are not wrong. The so called benefits of vaping are far out weighed by the PITA carting the kit around, never mind the essential PPE required. I have the vaping gear in the shed but haven't used it for two years. Don't know about others but I found myself holding my breath anyway. Goggles, mask, filters that should be replaced more frequently than I'm guessing most are, I can understand that some choose to avoid all that and risking their own health for a simple, quick treatment that works.

You’ve tried Abelo’s oxalic strips, yes? I’d be interested in how that went. I put four in a swarm I caught but didn’t have the courage to use them for autumn treating all the hives.

 

[Apple]

You’ve tried Abelo’s oxalic strips, yes? I’d be interested in how that went. I put four in a swarm I caught but didn’t have the courage to use them for autumn treating all the hives.

Probably work just as well as rhubarb leaves do....

seem to work well on our colonies!!!

Nadelik Lowen

 

[Swarm]

You’ve tried Abelo’s oxalic strips, yes? I’d be interested in how that went. I put four in a swarm I caught but didn’t have the courage to use them for autumn treating all the hives.

I'll let you know when I inspect next Spring. All colonies had strips added this Spring and again after harvest, my friend is trying them but he is doing a trickle as well in the next few days. He was happy with his observations, he usually uses MAQS. I'm not treating mine this Winter, maybe next year will be different.

 

[elainemary]

Very true, we should accept there is more than one way to treat bees and those who do things differently are not wrong. The so called benefits of vaping are far out weighed by the PITA carting the kit around, never mind the essential PPE required. I have the vaping gear in the shed but haven't used it for two years. Don't know about others but I found myself holding my breath anyway. Goggles, mask, filters that should be replaced more frequently than I'm guessing most are, I can understand that some choose to avoid all that and risking their own health for a simple, quick treatment that works.
[/

There is so much stuff written to promote certain methods/bees/hives/frames....etc etc etc..... I read items in bee circles with a significant dose of scepticism.
Current trends (fashions?) overpromote sublimation as it is the politically correct method of choice. Part of that is denigrating the method that went before...and worked fine. Truth is both ways work with a slight edge running in favour of sublimation. To read some writers you would think still trickling is a cardinal sin.

We still trickle (although the term itself implies slowness...it is not)...and provided the bees are strong and healthy we see very few dead bees. Sublimation would take MUCH longer for a benefit less than the extra effort.

Some colonies have turfed out some dead bees after the trickle we completed a couple of weeks ago.....but not many. All now settled back down quite happily.

Have staff who routinely sublimated in Europe. They did not like it and after completing large numbers of treatments reported feeling quite ill.

Can see your point re commercial operations and PPE is an additional cost so respect the way the choice you make. Though for hobby beekeepers, sublimation is proven scientifically to be less harmful to bees vs trickling, rather than just being in vogue and can be done more than once.

 

[elainemary]

Very true, we should accept there is more than one way to treat bees and those who do things differently are not wrong. The so called benefits of vaping are far out weighed by the PITA carting the kit around, never mind the essential PPE required. I have the vaping gear in the shed but haven't used it for two years. Don't know about others but I found myself holding my breath anyway. Goggles, mask, filters that should be replaced more frequently than I'm guessing most are, I can understand that some choose to avoid all that and risking their own health for a simple, quick treatment that works.

Extract from research review of varroacide treatments:

"The tolerability of the oxalic acid treatment depends strongly on the method of administration used. Colonies treated with the trickling method had a significantly higher adult bee mortality then those treated with the vaporizer method (22). Quite interestingly, it has been shown that queen bees can tolerate higher doses of acaricides than workers, suggesting that the physiological differences between the two can affect pesticide sensitivity (23)"
Full review is here for interest. Was referenced at a lecture I attended at Sheffield University a couple of years ago, the report can be downloaded as a pdf by following the link.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ganic_acaricides_on_honey_bee_health_A_review

 

[Nige.Coll]

If our national beekeepers association had any wits about them they would spend a few quid of the reserves and do it ... they could sell 'officially recognised' OA for a sensible price and soon recoup their investment... clutching at straws there I'm afraid...

Maybe they just bought shares in the company that makes it, that would explain why they still say it's the only approved treatment when it isn't.

Curiously there is no OA product licensed for multiple treatments by sublimation.

 

[beeno]

There is so much stuff written to promote certain methods/bees/hives/frames....etc etc etc..... I read items in bee circles with a significant dose of scepticism.
Current trends (fashions?) overpromote sublimation as it is the politically correct method of choice. Part of that is denigrating the method that went before...and worked fine. Truth is both ways work with a slight edge running in favour of sublimation. To read some writers you would think still trickling is a cardinal sin.

We still trickle (although the term itself implies slowness...it is not)...and provided the bees are strong and healthy we see very few dead bees. Sublimation would take MUCH longer for a benefit less than the extra effort.

Some colonies have turfed out some dead bees after the trickle we completed a couple of weeks ago.....but not many. All now settled back down quite happily.

Have staff who routinely sublimated in Europe. They did not like it and after completing large numbers of treatments reported feeling quite ill.

I cannot say that I have ever noticed dead bees as a direct result of trickling. Mine started clearing out the dead long before trickling. Presumably due to premature ageing of winter bees from late brood rearing in the very mild autumn we have had.

 

[mbc]

Yes Shirley... the cynic in me suggests that it was just opportunist marketing ... it was never intended to be sublimated ... if I win the lottery I'm going to register neat OA ... and then make a fortune selling it as magic fairy dust !

It's all a bit of a con, I'm sure generic oxalic is approved in the eu (Germany?) so we should also be allowed to use the generic stuff, pre brexit anyway, gives us a week!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

pre brexit anyway, gives us a week!

The VMD is a UK Governement department, they'll still be here after brexit, this is another case of our civil servants gold plating every regulation, and it will still be a nice little earner for companies in the loop next year

 

[mbc]

The VMD is a UK Governement department, they'll still be here after brexit, this is another case of our civil servants gold plating every regulation, and it will still be a nice little earner for companies in the loop next year

Infuriating that we put up with it, even if the authorities turn a blind eye really we should be tearing the whole premis up and shoving it up the relevant ministers aspidestra, our national associations just roll over and accept it too, it's absurd!

 

[Apple]

Is the VMD a quango?

 

[pargyle]

Is the VMD a quango?

No it's more of a Quan't go

 

[BugsInABox]

You’ve tried Abelo’s oxalic strips, yes? I’d be interested in how that went. I put four in a swarm I caught but didn’t have the courage to use them for autumn treating all the hives.

I tried them in one TBH this autumn - ended up having to vape.