Supplements advice - Juiced up bees!

[Newbeeneil]

If nothing else, a link to the site would allow Neil to sort it himself - or maybe a screenshot?

All sorted! Thanks Polyhive, the wife loved to see her Grandfather's business details.
When I get a chance I will give a few details and ask the collective if anyone has any details about Elbees and George Welham Lee-Barber.

Many thanks again.

 

[SDM]

Not so, some of the bees sampled were unique to Ireland, some had a mitochondria seen elsewhere too.
Does it matter?
There is mention of Dutch input to the ancestry of the galtee bees, it's no secret.

Doesn't matter to me per se. But it would rather put a hole in the idea of irish Amm being uniquely adapted to the Irish climate/flora. An idea that seems quite precious to NIHBS .
Also i dont think it says anywhere in the study that any of the bees are uniquely Irish just that some have elements that are considered uniquely Irish. I am quite dubious of just how successful their programme has been, in that without a reliable means to select their pure stock( morphometry not being a reliable method) they have managed to produce so large a pure population in a hybridised environment. Just my own belief , but ive long suspected the "purity" in the Irish population has been imported quite recently. Ive not seen anything in a study yet that would disprove my theory and to be fair given the motivation of those producing such studies, its not a question I'm expecting to see answered.
Like the pre IOW samples that were analysed 7yrs ago, nothing has been done with them as there is no wish to see if current uk Amm bare any resemblance to pre IOW Amm.

 

[Beefriendly]

Now Contrast the advertisements in the British Bee Journal in 1908, just around the start of IofW disease.
Not an Italian or Carniolan in sight.

 

[SDM]

There are mentions of italians and Carnica imports well back into the 1800's but mostly for research purposes.

 

[Beefriendly]

There are mentions of italians and Carnica imports well back into the 1800's but mostly for research purposes.

If I check my old notes I could probably give you the year each strain was 1st brought into the UK and by whom.
I found it quite interesting that browsing the adverts section of the British Bee Journal there were very few adverts for imported bees prior to IofW disease taking it's toll. Then adverts for imported bees dominated it's advertising pages.
You can learn a lot by studying the pattern of adverts.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Doesn't matter to me per se. But it would rather put a hole in the idea of irish Amm being uniquely adapted to the Irish climate/flora. An idea that seems quite precious to NIHBS .
Also i dont think it says anywhere in the study that any of the bees are uniquely Irish just that some have elements that are considered uniquely Irish. I am quite dubious of just how successful their programme has been, in that without a reliable means to select their pure stock( morphometry not being a reliable method) they have managed to produce so large a pure population in a hybridised environment. Just my own belief , but ive long suspected the "purity" in the Irish population has been imported quite recently. Ive not seen anything in a study yet that would disprove my theory and to be fair given the motivation of those producing such studies, its not a question I'm expecting to see answered.
Like the pre IOW samples that were analysed 7yrs ago, nothing has been done with them as there is no wish to see if current uk Amm bare any resemblance to pre IOW Amm.

The uniquely Irish markers could be markers not previously found due to small sample sizes, I think that was acknowledged in the paper

 

[For want of a better word]

The uniquely Irish markers could be markers not previously found due to small sample sizes, I think that was acknowledged in the paper

You are correct.
From the conference held by B4 at Eden Project in Cornwall last weekend with the leading scientists involved in Amm research from Scotland Wales Ireland and England it seems that there are many more Single Nucleotide Pollymorphisms (SNPs) that can be used to define Amm and where as to the original or even introgressed populations came from.

My thoughts are that the Amm populations are and were so robust and suitably adapted to localised environmental conditions that even importation of non native / exotic bees, as was the fad and fashon, after bee populations collapsed during the early part of the last century, that Amm populations survived the influx in the western reaches... much as they do today.

Probably more to do with anthropology than a few old newspaper cuttings?

 

[Ian123]

BF for full effect you need to post a page of adds from a few years later

 

[For want of a better word]

BF for full effect you need to post a page of adds from a few years later

February 2019 BBKA comic would do it !!

 

[Ian123]

Lol you may have a point

 

[Beefriendly]

BF for full effect you need to post a page of adds from a few years later

They are pretty much the same. I've provided the links....go do it...
I've done my bit.

 

[Beefriendly]

You are correct.
From the conference held by B4 at Eden Project in Cornwall last weekend with the leading scientists involved in Amm research from Scotland Wales Ireland and England it seems that there are many more Single Nucleotide Pollymorphisms (SNPs) that can be used to define Amm and where as to the original or even introgressed populations came from.:

About time you started giving out actual data and facts rather than rhetoric that you don't understand but think sounds good.

Below is table of DNA analysis from Catherine Thompson s' PhD thesis showing that even the most "pure" Amm's from Colonsay are not 100 %. There is a table somewhere detailing all the foreign marker genes they found in those and other populations.

BTW a score of 1 on the table would represent 100% pure....

 

[For want of a better word]

CT's thesis was mentioned at the B4 conference... but somewhat old hat as things Amm wise have moved on apace on the last six years in sequencing techniques....and comparitive computing

### today hardly anyone that knows what they are doing uses wing morphometry* anymore... my own Canon Lide is gathering dust!!

Re ~ wilding Ireland with Amm was quite controversial... pity you did not attend as I am sure you would have enjoyed locking horns with all the real experts in this field!!!!

* once cutting edge!

Yeghes da

 

[Beefriendly]

Mentioned at the B4 conference... but old news as things Amm wise have moved on apace.a

Things do move on but introgressed genes remain...there are no 100% "pure" Amm populations left in the UK .

So how about some solid facts and data from you???
Or are you just going to persist with your unsubstantiated horseship rhetoric???
My money is on the later....all mouth and no trousers...

 

[For want of a better word]

OK you are the expert on all thing in beekeeping and DNA.
Let us leave it at that!
Tit.

 

[Beefriendly]

 

[foghornleghorn]

CT's thesis was mentioned at the B4 conference... but somewhat old hat as things Amm wise have moved on apace on the last six years in sequencing techniques....and comparitive computing

### today hardly anyone that knows what they are doing uses wing morphometry* anymore... my own Canon Lide is gathering dust!!

Re ~ wilding Ireland with Amm was quite controversial... pity you did not attend as I am sure you would have enjoyed locking horns with all the real experts in this field!!!!

* once cutting edge!

Yeghes da

Rewilding Ireland with amm?

 

[tidymeup]

Just a though back to Candipolline, it's not a balanced food and no details of the amino acid profile of the pollen that is used in it. The amount of added vitamins and fats are also lacking.

Anything that can benefit the build up will need to be balanced containing proteins and carbohydrates.

Once you start feeding though you should continue until their is substantial amounts of pollen entering the hive and they can generate some stores of it.

If you don't the bees can loose ground, egg laying will slow and the advantage has been lost.

Their are studies that show real world differences on the amount of brood produced and the affect on the honey crop later in the season.

Not every supplement or feed replacement is produced the same.

 

[Poly Hive]

If you wnat to feed pollen in Spring trap it the previous year. However no one here seems to do it, my thread on pollen cleaning was a complete flop and of course there is the disease issue.

RE Amm I am staggered from a quick real though the locations that Aberdeenshire is absent as is Kincardinshire. Maud was where Mobus found what he considered to be Amm, and he propagated them pretty widely through the NE of Scotland.

PH

 

[SDM]

My thoughts are that the Amm populations are and were so robust and suitably adapted to localised environmental conditions that even importation of non native / exotic bees, as was the fad and fashon, after bee populations collapsed during the early part of the last century, that Amm populations survived the influx in the western reaches... much as they do today.

Probably more to do with anthropology than a few old newspaper cuttings?

You make a fine argument for the disbanding of BIBBA and an end to Amm reserves.
Clearly in your opinion they are unnecessary.