Supplements advice - Juiced up bees!

[Beefriendly]

If you wnat to feed pollen in Spring trap it the previous year. However no one here seems to do it,

You are fortunate or haven't examined your local micro-climates closely.
For example the apiary in my back garden has been struggling for pollen, hazel catkins nearby but not ripe and no pollen when shook and bees are flying but returning with no pollen, so have been feeding supplement which they are taking well
My nearest out Apiary is literally less than 1/2 a mile a way in a more sheltered valley. The catkins here are ripe and releasing pollen. Lots of yellow pollen on the varroa board, whereas non at home. These girls do not need any supplement (assuming the weather stays fine). Of course this can change and you need to adapt to circumstances that are current in YOUR apiary.
When I teach people I never tell them do this, do that....etc ....I explain you need to figure out what is happening where you keep your bees and act accordingly. Not take well meaning generic advice given by people, 100's of miles away.
I remember one wet summer not that many years ago being told very strongly by a local beekeeper that he never ever had to feed his bees in summer and there was no need...mine where dry, no nectar so I (guiltily) disobeyed his advice and fed...they all survived. He lost 25/30 colonies. A few years later he told me had learnt a hard salutatory lesson...

These hazel catkins are dripping pollen...

 

[Poly Hive]

I sometimes think you set out to be awkwrd BF.

I was saying if you want to FEED pollen then collect it the previous season. It used to be possible to buy sterile pollen but seemingly for what ever reason that is no longer possible.

If you want to supply your stocks (using your generically) then in the UK it seems that you have to collect your own.

As for suggesting I don't know my area I have two words for that. You can guess. I may not have been here long, this is my third season but I know what is where thank you.

Some manners would not go amiss and I am remembering why I backed off from this forum. I run a FB group of near 300 with far less hassle and admin another of over 2000 with the same lack of grief.

As for cheeking me over location relevant advice I just give up. Back you go on ignore and there you stay.

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

I sometimes think you set out to be awkwrd BF.

I was mainly referring to the "No-one here does this" suggesting you may not be aware of all the micro-climates within your local area. As my illustrated example shows you don't have to go far to find major differences in pollen availability..
I get annoyed by the crap generic advice that many give suggesting that this is what other beekeepers "must do" where their bees are located. When it can sometimes can be the totally wrong advice for that micro-climate. I'm sure you would agree..and I wasn't totally referring to you, although your advice can often be construed as generic.

If you think that asking awkward questions makes me awkward, sorry that's tough!
And if you are so precious that a little criticism stings so much that I am now on your ignore list ....well.....it simply bears out my own thoughts.

 

[TooBee...]

Sorry but I just laugh when I hear this story that ALL Amm died out in the UK.

Really? I mean seriously ALL of them. Nope.
...
PH

Hi Poly Hive,
sorry for not getting back sooner, I wasn't being rude by ignoring you, I've just been (am still am) very busy.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear, but I did not say that "ALL Amm died out in the UK", I have read in BIBBA articles that Br. Adam made this claim, which I would think very odd as essentially he could look out his window and see Amm hives, certainly between 1919 - 1948. AND before you ask, yes I have speed read (at least) all of his writtings that I can get hold of - IF you can give me a quote from him (and the source for me to double check it) in which he says "ALL Amm died out in the UK" then I would be Very Appreciative.

Please accept my apologies if my style of debate / discussion causes your blood to boil, your Posting and info. you have freely provided has been useful to me and I believe will be invaluable in the coming year

 

[TooBee...]

...I did and can confirm your assertion that " DNA evidence here in Ireland has confirmed our A.m.m's are mainly of Dutch (and some French) origin" is utter nonsense and that conclusion cannot possibly be drawn from the results of the paper you quoted ...

"Some European bees showed a proportional membership of 0.757 to “Irish” mellifera. However, the Irish bees show little introgression of European alleles with an average proportional membership of 0.007"...

Hi mbc, thanks for replying and referencing the paper in question, also thank you for allowing me to discuss this with you, as I acknowledge that I may have misunderstood what I read, and stand ready to be corrected if I am wrong

Under the heading "Discussion" fourth paragraph, (I've condensed this down and added emphasis for ease of reading);
"The majority of Irish mitochondrial sequences were identical to three haplotypes that were described from the Netherlands, ... Whether the same levels of Dutch haplotypes will be present in a wider sample of non-managed colonies remains to be seen. But certainly, amongst the beekeepers in the NIHBS these are the predominant type of A. m. mellifera here".
It is from here that I was referring to from memory.

Your quote comes from the paragraph just under Fig. 3. the previous sentence to which also states;
"The European A. m. mellifera bees contained a mixture of ‘Irish’ and ‘European’ alleles, with an average proportional membership of 0.595 to EU mellifera and 0.360 to “Irish” mellifera".
IF "Irish Amm", are indeed Irish (and not a previously unknown European source), then for European Amm's to have their alleles the first thought is that there must have been large Irish exports to Europe, which seems unlikely?
In an online disussion it appears that Jack is jumping to the conclusion that DNA samples that doesn't match any known DNA samples are automatically Irish, it may bee, but it may not bee...

Also from reading the paragraph which you have quoted the statement "...the Irish bees show little introgression of European alleles with an average proportional membership of 0.007..." is referring to the C Lineage, which has nothing to do with this discussion, but I suspect that that finding is because there were very few samples taken from the North of Ireland, but that's another discussion!

 

[Hivemaker.]

in which he says "ALL Amm died out in the UK"

In the first video at 18-41 he says they were completely wiped out, but he could be meaning just at the Abbey.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27554&highlight=Monk+Honey+Bee

 

[For want of a better word]

I sometimes think you set out to be awkwrd BF.

I was saying if you want to FEED pollen then collect it the previous season. It used to be possible to buy sterile pollen but seemingly for what ever reason that is no longer possible.

If you want to supply your stocks (using your generically) then in the UK it seems that you have to collect your own.

As for suggesting I don't know my area I have two words for that. You can guess. I may not have been here long, this is my third season but I know what is where thank you.

Some manners would not go amiss and I am remembering why I backed off from this forum. I run a FB group of near 300 with far less hassle and admin another of over 2000 with the same lack of grief.

As for cheeking me over location relevant advice I just give up. Back you go on ignore and there you stay.

PH

Thank you PH
Seems some are incapable of reasoned debate and have to regress to slinging insults.... whatever the subject.

 

[Beefriendly]

Be good to see some reasoned debate/facts about purity of Cornish amms.

 

[For want of a better word]

Be good to see some reasoned debate/facts about purity of Cornish amms.

Hallelujah.

Not so long ago there was doubt of their existence!

 

[Beefriendly]

Not in doubt. The last DNA analysis I saw (was published on the BIBA site-now removed) showed the very purest where no more than 80% Amm, with introgression from Italian/ Carniolan and other subspecies. They were also more related to French Amm's than other UK Amm reference standards.
Of course you may have access to more recent data...... but until it is available or you actually produce some relevant facts they will remain, in my opinion, as Les abeilles de cornouailles

 

[For want of a better word]

Not in doubt. The last DNA analysis I saw (was published on the BIBA site-now removed) showed the very purest where no more than 80% Amm, with introgression from Italian/ Carniolan and other subspecies. They were also more related to French Amm's than other UK Amm reference standards.
Of course you may have access to more recent data...... but until it is available or you actually produce some relevant facts they will remain, in my opinion, as Les abeilles de

cornouailles

You seem to have an opinion on everything!

 

[TooBee...]

You seem to have an opinion on everything!

We all have opinions on everything! Some of us (meaning me and you) have very strongly held opinions on some very specific things, which means we can both wind each other up a lot!

However your tenacity is very admirable ... and you put forward your views with such conviction that I am finding it very intriguing... so much so that I am giving consideration to the possibility that there may be a strain of cornish Amm... but without hard (published) evidence in front of me I must reserve judgment.

Please update us with any new developments on the Cornish Amm's, ... especially if the queens become available commercially

mate ,

 

[TooBee...]

In the first video at 18-41 he says they were completely wiped out, but he could be meaning just at the Abbey.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27554&highlight=Monk+Honey+Bee

Hi Hivemaker,
great series of videos aren't they, really fascinating!

I'll quote Brother Adam (bold only emphasis added by me for clarity);

"Well, the Old English Bee was ... ah.. it had a number of very good qualities, but it also had a series of very bad qualities and temper was one of them, and fertility was another, the Queens weren't, weren't very prolific, so it was of course usually small colonies ... and ah ... and the Old Native Bee was extremely susceptible to Acarine disease and it was completely wiped out".

Here one can see (hear) that Br. Adam is solely and only referring to the indigenous bee of England (and by inference the rest of Britain), if you read his writings (and also here in this interview) you can clearly see that he considered the old English Black bee to be a strain of Apis mellifera mellifera. In a speech in German he clearly states (through his description) that the Old English Black Bee was superior to the continental Amm's (that were later imported to replace them, which he had to use in his Buckfast breeding program).

So you see that he's not saying that Amm's as a sub-specie were extinct in Britain, or at any time became extinct (would be a strange statement for him to make indeed as he would have had to have kept them for his breeding program - French Amm's referred to as Gale's), all he is saying is that it was the indigenous strain of Amm that had become extinct.

Anyway, it's not something for any of us to raise our blood pressure over, I'm guessing your bees have been out all week, loads of pollen coming in, it's going to be a good year!

 

[Finman]

.
You read 100 years old stories and your bees are becoming better and better the more you read.
Where is all breeding work during last 100 years? What has happened during last 20 years?
.

 

[For want of a better word]

.
You read 100 years old stories and your bees are becoming better and better the more you read.
Where is all breeding work during last 100 years? What has happened during last 20 years?
.

DNA sequencing has advances exponentially... and with this tool we have identified and qualified populations of native bees in the Western regions.

Cost and time of sequencing have also tumbled.

My Canon Lide scanner has been idle since we discovered that wing morphometry... so relied upon in the past for sub species identification... only really works if purity is high.

I am certain that peer reviewed papers will soon be published that contain all the information that some are crying out for.

There is a population of Native dark bees that can be defined from the SNPs as being unique to Cornwall.
SNPs library is continuously being expanded as more research institutes add to it ... collaboration at last!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

.
I am sure that bee researchers have better to do than research that odd Cornish Native Black Bee all the time. You do not have enough resources to measure all villages' bee DNA. Who else in the globe do such "research"? And where are those scientific reports?

Breeding wing morfometry...... Why!!!

And return yellow color to black.... That I understand.

 

[Brian Bush]

There are mentions of italians and Carnica imports well back into the 1800's but mostly for research purposes.

I agree. A few years ago I was reading an article about the displays of different sub-species of bee at The Great Exhibition.

 

[Beefriendly]

I agree. A few years ago I was reading an article about the displays of different sub-species of bee at The Great Exhibition.

Official dates of first imports are;_
1859, Italian by T.W. Woodbury
1870, Carniolan by W.Cowan
1887, Cyprian by T. Blow who also founded E.H.Taylors...now known as Thornes

 

[For want of a better word]

Stick to syrup and the hype you are hearing is AFAIK just that.

PH

Thread seems to have gone completely off topic with the usual having a dis at Amm!!!



Which syrup gives best results in Spring build up... end of march on....

1;1 Ikg sugar to 1 liter water
2:1 2kg sugar to 1 liter of water..
.... or the BBKA* 1kg of sugar to 620ml water

( *Seems to change with which master beekeeper is cutting and pasting)

and is is best to convert to lbs and pints or weigh the water.

I know what I do works for me 1:1 and a squirt of Vimto... no thymol!

 

[Murox]

Thread seems to have gone completely off topic with the usual having a dis at Amm!!!



Which syrup gives best results in Spring build up... end of march on....

1;1 Ikg sugar to 1 liter water
2:1 2kg sugar to 1 liter of water..
.... or the BBKA* 1kg of sugar to 620ml water

( *Seems to change with which master beekeeper is cutting and pasting)

and is is best to convert to lbs and pints or weigh the water.

I know what I do works for me 1:1 and a squirt of Vimto... no thymol!

Why Vimto ?