Is winter insulation overrated?

[Paulypaul]

Ok. If you live in the far north, there's a good chance your bees require insulation. But, for us southerners, do we over do it on the winter insulation?

There's a keeper very close to me runs dozens of colonies in old timber hives. Uses zero additional insulation for winter. No idea of his overwintering success rate as he doesn't talk to me.

Do serious commercial keepers add winter insulation?

Are some hobbyists who add a lot of insulation falling victim to treating bees like pets?

I use Abelo poly gear, so don't need any additional insulation. Next year I'm considering overwintering a couple of additional colonies on timber, with no additional insulation, just to seee if it makes much difference.

What's your experience? For most of us, is the need for winter insulation a bit over done?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

a slab of celotex over the crownboard summer and winter (mine are permanently fixed in the roofs) does no harm and probably does a lot of good (if for no other reason than blocking off those ridiculous vents on the roofs)
but faffing around with wraps and 'cozies' smacks a bit of silliness.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I use Abelo poly gear, so don't need any additional insulation.

You're right. You don't
I don't use their feeders so put 50mm celotex on top simply to make sure the top is warmer than the sides
I've given up on Stan's wooden boxes. I've converted him to poly.

 

[pargyle]

For most of us, is the need for winter insulation a bit over done?

No ... every bit of research shows that bees are better served if their environment is such that they can maintain it at the temperature they want - winter and SUMMER. What lengths you go to is up to you .. the least you should entertain is PIR above the crownboard but ... Bill Bielby (a well respected and thinking Yorkshire beekeeper) said in 1972 - "There is no such thing as too much insulation". It takes a while for some to catch on ...

 

[The Poot]

You're right. You don't
I don't use their feeders so put 50mm celotex on top simply to make sure the top is warmer than the sides
I've given up on Stan's wooden boxes. I've converted him to poly.

I do the same.
I’ve just got one wooden box in use now as my colonies expanded, one too many this year.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Warning: this post may upset those of a soppy or unthinking disposition

treating bees like pets?

That is the nub of the matter, because the guiding principle to think like a bee is too far a leap of imagination for many of us, so we look outward and apply human solutions to imaginary problems.

Bees evolved to seek a secure nest volume that can be maintained at optimal economy, temp. & humidity. They work collectively to aquire that environment but are able to compensate for wonky beekeeper intervention, weird locations or a nest in the open. In theory, our job should be to understand those requirements and supply them; instead, we give hives of thermal inefficiency yet rush to put a scarf on them if the the weather turns iffy.

faffing around with wraps and 'cozies' smacks a bit of silliness.

Yes, and since silliness is a human fixture, the soppy temptation to fuss and cosset is unlikely to fade. A critic of this silliness is Mr Molly-Coddle, aka Roger Patterson, who listed human misconceptions in a YT video:

5.25 not understanding
8.25 beekeeping by numbers
8.50 humanise bees
9.50 human thinking
25.05 how can we copy them?
25.10 answer: observation
1.10.50 insulation masking weakness
1.10.45 molly-coddle



Note for the faint-hearted: RP winters with open CB feed holes, even with open mesh floors. An experiment to winter 10 colonies with closed holes and ten with open was inconclusive regarding losses.

RP admits that he has never tried to insulate on top with PIR. This last admission disappoints me, as it is at odds with the emphasis at 22.20 of the insulation benefit of thick timber of a natural tree nest.

Do serious commercial keepers add winter insulation?

No waaay! Think of the material cost! Think of the labour! Nor would serious two-hivers consider such an indulgence, for the sound reasons RP listed above.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Nothing wrong with anthropomorphism
Who are we to judge anybody who calls their bees girls and wraps them in humanity? It’s a free world. It’s a bloomin hobby for a lot of us anyway.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A critic of this silliness is Mr Molly-Coddle, aka Roger Patterson, who listed human misconceptions in a YT video:

I wouldn't hold him up as a beacon of inspiration either

 

[ericbeaumont]

Nothing wrong with anthropomorphism
Who are we to judge anybody who calls their bees girls and wraps them in humanity? It’s a free world. It’s a bloomin hobby for a lot of us anyway.

Hobby status is irrelevant: we all have an obligation to manage to the best of our abilities livestock that works better under certain parameters. To ignore understanding of those factors is really the wilful avoidance of learning, and not many a beefarmer or amateur would wish to tread that path.

I wouldn't hold him up as a beacon of inspiration either

Every dog has its day.

 

[JamezF]

Nothing wrong with anthropomorphism
Who are we to judge anybody who calls their bees girls and wraps them in humanity? It’s a free world. It’s a bloomin hobby for a lot of us anyway.

I think it depends how far you go. Calling one's (worker) bees "girls" is fairly harmless and perhaps passably consistent with reality. Describing them as "angry", "aggressive" or "thinking" can perhaps lead to greater misunderstanding. Admittedly I still use such terms myself at times, but equally I'm always aware that it's not really what I mean and if I find myself saying it in front of people I'm teaching then I will attempt to explain that it's just a sort of shorthand for something else.

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think it depends how far you go

I rescue cold bees and warm them up.

 

[Sutty]

I rescue cold bees and warm them up.

I've been known to fish "drowned" bees out of water, it's surprising how many recover if put somewhere warm.
I'm aware in makes no real difference to the colony!

 

[ericbeaumont]

I rescue cold bees and warm them up.

So do I.

makes no real difference to the colony!

Yes, and makes such human empathy harmless, wheareas as listed above, conflating bee & human behaviour has greater impact on a colony.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I rescue cold bees and warm them up.

So do I.

In your mouth?

 

[madasafish]

I overwinter bees in mini nucs: I have insulated covers.
Without insulated covers, they die.
Simples.

 

[Macbear]

I think it depends how far you go. Calling one's (worker) bees "girls" is fairly harmless and perhaps passably consistent with reality. Describing them as "angry", "aggressive" or "thinking" can perhaps lead to greater misunderstanding. Admittedly I still use such terms myself at times, but equally I'm always aware that it's not really what I mean and if I find myself saying it in front of people I'm teaching then I will attempt to explain that it's just a sort of shorthand for something else.

James

In a different forum discussion [Accidental beekeeper in Sussex] reference was was to bees being "grumpy" etc.. It is surely good practice to include temperament in hive records. I use a scale of 1 to 5 [one representing a hostile reception] and note the number of stings received. Taken over a short period of time this may be an indicator that something needs to change. If it's me being clumsy etc, or if replacing the Q may be desirable... The numerical scale neither accuses the bees or me, and to be fair my reaction on getting stung is to immediately ***** what I may be doing wrong as I extract the offending intrusion.
There are times when opening a hive is going to excite negativity from the bees [e.g. thundery weather] - who would not be grumpy if the interior of their abode was exposed during inclement weather!

 

[RJC]

After 15 or so years beekeeping, last year I 'succumbed' to the implicit pressure on this forum to insulate my wooden nationals (with a nadired super), with a slab of PIR on the crown board. For what it is worth, by casual observation the insulated colonies were bigger in the spring. However, one swarmed really early on 2 April, and the subsequent deterioration in weather resulted in no queen mating for a long while. After much faffing trying to get a mated Q established CBPV set in on the dwindling colony and I lost it. It was a single colony, so not sure anything can be drawn from that. I have insulated again this winter (I didn't leave the PIR on all summer), and will be on alert from early April this year!

 

[Wilco]

I have a block of insulation above pretty much every colony. I use solid floors. Beyond that, I try to be sensible about how exposed to elements hives are.

 

[ericbeaumont]

insulated colonies were bigger in the spring

colonies were bigger in the spring ... one swarmed really early on 2 April

One leads naturally to the other; quite routine, esp. if the beekeeper doesn't keep up.

(I didn't leave the PIR on all summer)

Missing half the point, RJC: insulation is beneficial in winter and summer equally. Hardly likely bees would choose a well-insulated hive for winter and move to a thinly-insulated one for summer! Humans do that sort of thing but not bees, and we must learn to think like a bee.

alert from early April this year

Bees respond to stimuli, so observe colony expansion from early Spring whenever your eyes and nose (and not the calendar) tell you it is so. Spring may begin even in December, and I recall one year that swarms were out in London in January.