Supplements advice - Juiced up bees!

[Curly green fingers]

Well just checked in to see how the thread I started was and see what peoples opinions were. Still not much wiser lol the conversation definitely took an interesting turn though!

It happens quite regularly .

 

[Finman]

the Old British Black Bee was a superior bee than the imported .

But they died out.... Such superior.

British black bees are not very valuated around the world. They were exported to every continent long time ago, but they are not kept there any more.

How do you explain that?

 

[jeff33]

On a different note, we did discuss last spring the obsession of some of us to encourage early build-up and feed supplement. I think there was an agreement (before entering into an opinion related trench warfare) that it wasn't very helpful unless you had a reason to do so like OSR or cell starters for queen rearing, early split, etc?

Early build-up for no reason may trigger early swarming and other headaches. Now this is not a fact and I am not providing an expert opinion but I think you are better off ensuring your bees are going into the winter as a strong unit with ample stores and treated.

 

[TooBee...]

You for one would have benefited greatly from attending last Saturdays B4 conference at the Eden Project in Cornwall where a great deal of fact relating to Amm in the British Isles was presented by the leading Scientists in that field.
The presentations were videoed... except for one presentation that was not really worth recording as it contained very little information of note... The Phd student wishing to retain any of his Intellectual Property that could have been disseminated from it!

Are they going to be put online? Do you have a Link to the Lecture summaries - sometimes provided in such talks, ie: in booklets presented to attendees?

 

[mbc]

My understanding is that the Old British & Irish Black bees (two strains of the continental A. m. mellifera) died out from 1906 to 1945, due to the Isle of Wight disease. DNA evidence here in Ireland has confirmed our A.m.m's are mainly of Dutch (and some French) origin.

Brother Adam maintained that the Old British Black Bee was a superior bee than the imported A.m.m's brought into the country to replace them, hence the reason why he tried in vain to locate them up until 1943.

Fake news, pure misinformation from what I've read of the Irish DNA results.
Please stop spreading lies.

 

[TooBee...]

That opinion is based on your familiarity with Amm in Scotland long after IOW i assume.
Have you any reason to believe the Amm you handled were not imported during re-stocking. Its easy enough to find the point tha Amm were wiped out in N.Wales by looking at the rrcords of the Conwy honey show.
There's no question in my mind that much of Scotland was similarly restocked afterwards, even to video evidence of it in Aberdeenshire.

Yes, I'm with you on this one.
My opinions have been heavily influenced by non-Brother Adams writings, mainly the bee Journals, etc., however as he was the only beekeeper of worth that observed and wrote about what he saw (that we are aware of - paraphrasing other writers words), we had to rely on his writings somewhat excessively!

Only if Br. Adams had had access to modern technology to measure the size of the Tracheas, it would have made his breeding efforts easier, and explained why carnicas showed some very low level susceptibility to Acarine. We now know it's the size of the Tracheas that are the key factor in why some bees get Acarine and others don't. It was this final piece of the jigsaw puzzle that convinced me to accept Br. Adams thrust that all the original natives of our islands sadly died (it is possible that the DNA may have survived by crossing with resistant strains, but Br. Adams observations would seem to reduce the likely-hood of this, - it seems it's difficult to breed small tracheas into bees that don't have it).

By the way, do you have access to the "video evidence of it in Aberdeenshire".

 

[TooBee...]

Fake news, pure misinformation from what I've read of the Irish DNA results.
Please stop spreading lies.

?!?!
I thought I mentioned this before in a Thread we were both on, you asked for the Research paper that I was paraphrasing from memory, and I gave you the name of it, you never replied nor followed up, so I thought you accepted it's (and my paraphrased) findings: Are you referring to a different paper that I am not aware of? Or are we both talking about the same one??? You need to be clear when you say "from what I've read of the Irish DNA results" can you please tell me the name of what you have read so that I can read it too, ... so that we can both be sure we are talking about the same thing ... and then we can both have a intelligible and informed conversation

PS: It's never my intention to knowingly make false statements (lies), however I may unknowingly make false statements (mistakes) - if so (as you seem to be saying) then please help me to correct (from your point of view) my (mis)understanding.

 

[Poly Hive]

however as he was the only beekeeper of worth that observed and wrote about what he saw (that we are aware of - paraphrasing other writers words), we had to rely on his writings somewhat excessively!

Really?

Let's have a wee think about this please. He was a junior monk in a relatively isolated part of the world in the 1920s. Just how much of the world information do you think he was able to access? I doubt they had a radio, possibly a weekly newspaper and word of mouth.

Meanwhile, in other places, there was a lot going on but sadly The SAC in their wisdom dumped all the research from Craibsone which was at the time a world leader in researching Accarine. I phoned the Librarian some years ago to check if they had kept copies of the monthly bulletins that the college used to send out and very informative they were too. But now all gone. Tragic.

PH

 

[SDM]

Are they going to be put online? Do you have a Link to the Lecture summaries - sometimes provided in such talks, ie: in booklets presented to attendees?

I believe they bolloxed up the recording.

 

[SDM]

By the way, do you have access to the "video evidence of it in Aberdeenshire".

French bees arriving at Craibstone in the 30's, since this was Mobus's area they quite likely played a part in what became his Maude bees.

https://youtu.be/D7F5u7Uqt1U

 

[TooBee...]

Really?

Let's have a wee think about this please. He was a junior monk in a relatively isolated part of the world in the 1920s. Just how much of the world information do you think he was able to access? I doubt they had a radio, possibly a weekly newspaper and word of mouth.

I did state that I was paraphrasing the claims of "other writers words", I also said that a major source of info I used was from Journals (safe to say he had access to the same, if not at the time, then later).

Most importantly, he had first hand observational experience.... more than we have, and more than most writers.

A most important part of this is his Breeding Records which show that the British Strain of Amm did not survive in subsequent generations, hence the reason Br. Adam had to resort to going to France (northern I think), then Provence, Switzerland... for his Amm's (side note: Amm's were included in his breeding program every year from 1919 to 1948, he valued and spoke highly of many of their characteristics).

Contrary to some claims, he lamented the demise of the British strain of Amm (he maintained that it was better than the continental imports), hence the reason why he continued his search to 1943 for the Old British Black Bee, and then later to Ireland - if he had access to modern technology he wouldn't have gone to such efforts though.

Poly Hive, you need to remember, not all bees get infected with Acarine when exposed to it, Greeks/Macedonians don't have them, it's because of their smaller tracheas, Amm's are big bees = big tracheas, the original British strain of Amm's here must have had a slightly larger set of tracheas to make them so susceptible.

 

[Poly Hive]

Sorry but I just laugh when I hear this story that ALL Amm died out in the UK.

Really? I mean seriously ALL of them. Nope.

I so wish the college hadn't dumped their records as that I very strongly suspect would tell a very different tale from the crap that BA put out.

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There is rather too much weight given to the opinion of an isolated monk in my thoughts.

PH

Only by a particular person hellbent on trolling any discourse which mentions AMM (or failing that, bringing the subject up)

 

[Popparand]

Fake news, pure misinformation from what I've read of the Irish DNA results.
Please stop spreading lies.

Not sure what point you are making but....

It's pretty well known that BA did a lot of research, and not just in the UK, to try to breed a successor to the Isle of Wight victims. Aided and abetted by the much missed Bert Manley (designer of the eponymous frame), who knew a thing or two about bees.

 

[Swarm]

I don't feed pollen supplements to my bees, I find there is an abundance of natural forage from very early spring.

 

[Poly Hive]

I hope you are not saying I am a troll jbs?

PH

 

[Poly Hive]

I have discovered that the SBA magazines are all archived on that site.

I have just read the 1928 one and while there is an advert for Elbees packages of French bees, 32/6 for 3 pounds, airfreight no less there is not one mention of losses. Interesting as that year was the height of the IOW so called disease or so I thought?

There are local reports from various secretaries including Newcastle and Orkney, and none of them mentions special issues though they all say it was a poor year.

Also read 1930 and no reports of losses. Ho hum...

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Aided and abetted by the much missed Bert Manley (designer of the eponymous frame), who knew a thing or two about bees.

Who also thought BA was talking bollocks when he said that AMM was a poor bee and was now extinct

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I hope you are not saying I am a troll jbs?

PH

Not at all - referring to the one who obviously has an axe to grind about native bees, who claims to be a total beginner but an expert on all things bee DNA and AMM related

 

[For want of a better word]

Not at all - referring to the one who obviously has an axe to grind about native bees, who claims to be a total beginner but an expert on all things bee DNA and AMM related

Phew !!....not someone beefarming in Cornwall for last decade then!

Often wondered if BA actually said or wrote that there were no native black bees in England.... seems that the BBKA suggested reading for the "Basic" quoted him as saying just that... a Buckfast annual requeening advocate!