Spreading the brood

[Jimmys Mum]

I've been reading about this in Ted Hoopers book. He describes that it is done in order to build up the brood nest size in Spring but I haven't heard anyone on here talking about doing it at all. Although I may have just missed it!
Is it something that is still practised by experienced beekeepers?
Note, that as a newish (3rd year) beekeeper, I wasn't planning on doing it, I'm just interested to know more about it and whether folks do actually do it?
Cheers
JM

 

[Queens59]

Someone did describe how to go about it - Polyhive, Muswell Metro or similar - last summer or the one before...and yes - it is still done...

 

[mbc]

I know a few beekeepers who still 'spread the brood' but this day and age it is widely recognised as deviant practice that does more harm than good.

 

[Travelator]

I think it's become unfashionable because of the general view that "the bees know best".

IIRC PolyHive, former doyen of the forum, often argued in favour of spreading the brood and gave useful details of how to do it and when it was appropriate.

I certainly move frames around on occasion to give the bees more space and I'm sure lots of other people do, but I don't think many these days do it religiously to every colony every spring.

 

[VEG]

It works if the conditions are right otherwise it does more harm than good.

 

[busybee53]

Tried it last year and it worked fine. Didn't know it was deviant practice

It was a strong colony which I wanted to grow bigger because I wanted to get some queen cells from it, but I didn't go as full on as Ted Hooper. Just swapped partly laid frames over with fully laid ones. Queen soon laid up the rest of the partly laid frames.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The most I have ever done is put a foundation frame in the middle of the brood nest in the autumn in a strong colony to get more winter bees.
I shall scuttle off to see what Hooper does.

 

[Heather]

The most I have ever done is put a foundation frame in the middle of the brood nest in the autumn in a strong colony to get more winter bees.

Think this is a real No No. Spreading the brood means just remixing fuller brood frames with lesser filled brood to encourage more filling in the now middle ones. But why mess about if queen laying.
BUT to put a foundation between brood frames is incorrect, IMO, as you will get fewer bees there and this may chill brood either side of the foundation.

 

[drstitson]

It was PH - summer before last.
works fine when colony strong enough.
remember PH was a strong advocate of supering only when colony strong enough too!

 

[mbc]

Tried it last year and it worked fine. Didn't know it was deviant practice

It was a strong colony which I wanted to grow bigger because I wanted to get some queen cells from it, but I didn't go as full on as Ted Hooper. Just swapped partly laid frames over with fully laid ones. Queen soon laid up the rest of the partly laid frames.

It works if the conditions are right otherwise it does more harm than good.

It was PH - summer before last.
works fine when colony strong enough.
remember PH was a strong advocate of supering only when colony strong enough too!

Define "works".

 

[Cazza]

Tried it last year and it worked fine. Didn't know it was deviant practice

QUOTE]

OMG I'm a deviant practioner!
Quite like the sound of that.
I do on occasion do it. Not on all hives and only when the time is right.

Cazza

 

[Suzi Q]

I think I remember ITLD saying he places foundation into the brood nest (side of the brood nest?) to get more winter bees/comb drawn?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Think this is a real No No. Spreading the brood means just remixing fuller brood frames with lesser filled brood to encourage more filling in the now middle ones.

Oooops my apologies. Should have looked it up before posting

BUT

I think I remember ITLD saying he places foundation into the brood nest (side of the brood nest?) to get more winter bees/comb drawn?

Yes.......and it DOES work. Foundation is drawn super fast if they are being fed or there is a flow (Balsam here) and queen lays it up with winter bees

One colony got three frames thus.

 

[Travelator]

I doubt whether any of us (apart from ITLD himself) keeps enough colonies, with good enough measurements and notes, to be able to determine scientifically whether spreading the brood in spring actually "works" (where "works" is defined as giving a higher average honey yield per colony)!

I do recall ITLD saying that if you put a frame or two of foundation into the middle of the brood nest during autumn feeding, you would get very nicely drawn comb, but that's a different subject altogether from spreading the brood in spring.

My personal variation on "spreading the brood" goes like this: if it's spring and the brood nest is hemmed in on both sides by walls or frames completely full of stores, move an empty drawn frame into the brood nest. I haven't seen this cause chilled brood or total colony demise, but equally I can't produce sound evidence that it does any good!

 

[drstitson]

both approaches are fine.

PH brood spreading does go slightly against doctrine but is widespread and involves rejigging the existing brood frames, forcing the bees to expand the nest back into shape. this can just involve turning the outer frames of the nest or inserting between inner frames. No actual splitting of the brood nest.

BUT equally when warm and a good flow on e.g. in late summer/early autumn, a frame of foundation can be placed in midst of brood to get it drawn.

as always the key is to read the hive and do what is appropriate and sustainable for the colony at that time.

remember we still have plenty of newbies being told (or rather not being told not) to put 5 frame nucs into full brood boxes of foundation with no insulation/dummying - and then wondering why little yield or build up that season if temps poor or timing bad.

 

[mbc]

Yes.......and it DOES work. Foundation is drawn super fast if they are being fed or there is a flow (Balsam here) and queen lays it up with winter bees

One colony got three frames thus.

Utilising end of season bee power to expand a nest is a different kettle of fish to stretching early season bees to cover more brood area.

 

[drstitson]

"Utilising end of season bee power to expand a nest is a different kettle of fish to stretching early season bees to cover more brood area."

true. but spreading the brood as per PH does not immediately increase brood area (unlike splitting with foundation). The frames are just rearranged encouraging gradual remodelling.

 

[oliver90owner]

Two things come to mind. Space and lay rate.

Only good if they are mismatched where lay rate can be increased by virtue of more laying space.

 

[mbc]

I doubt whether any of us (apart from ITLD himself) keeps enough colonies, with good enough measurements and notes, to be able to determine scientifically whether spreading the brood in spring actually "works" (where "works" is defined as giving a higher average honey yield per colony)!

A number of seasons ago I compared classically "spread" colonies (a la Ted Hooper) vs. a similar group with the nest left to their own devices.
The manipulated colonies had a bigger measurable brood area for the next few inspections (done at 10 - 14 day intervals) but this early seeming advantage didnt transpire into noticeably larger colonies or bigger crops, in fact, by mid summer the latter group had more full supers and what looked to my eyes as a larger foraging force. Swarming didnt seem affected either way. These results confirmed my hunch from observations in seasons before this and since then our understanding of the consequences of raising brood in sub optimal conditions has improved. Less well cared for brood leads to bees who live shorter lives.
My conclusion was that spreading the brood to encourage faster expansion in the spring is counter productive with my bees in my locality.

 

[Teebeeaitch]

Most TBH users do this starting late spring and through the summer, as a pretty standard method of encouraging colony expansion and also to help discourage swarming. Obviously only done when there is incoming nectar.