Oxalic Acid

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Phil, ISO9001 is just the start for medicinal manufacturing. Lots more layers and hoops to get through. The quality of the OA would have been detailed in the marketing application, together with how it’s tested for and controlled. I can’t open the epar attatchment above, but this is the summary of the agencies accessment of the Markering application
Whilst I accept totally what you are saying - all I can find in the literature of Laif Chemicals is that it is Pharmaceutical Grade:

https://www.cari.be/medias/permanent/apibioxal_depliant_2011.pdf
 
However, i’m Sure you know better

It has been researched that treating a beehive with oxalic acid does not harm honey. That is why oxalic acid is not followed from honey.

When you eate carrots, you get 100 Times more oxalic honey than from honey.

Read from EU Varroa Group report.
I do not start to offer my ideas yo the world like you. Ypu have no facts behind your belief.

Every EU country has the same legistation about animal medicines.

I know very well, how British beekeepers react on researched information and recommendations. They change the the results to their own.

I have followed your knowledge so long that I know.
 
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Finny, I know you are an expert in everything, but in the UK any treatments given to food producing animals are legally required to be recorded. If you are buying and using any old OA you are outside of the law that’s there to prevent contamination of honey. Not in my head, written in law

I’m sure the Finish medicines agency (FIMEA) has the same basis in law, and last time I looked European food standards agency covered Finland.

However, i’m Sure you know better
So ..whilst I have modest brain power I am neither a medical person or a scientist ... I found this from 2004 ... Perhaps someone could explain in laymans terms why we do not have plain and simple Pharmaceutical grade OA available for use in tackling varroa legally in the UK ?

http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/varroa/mrl_oxalic.htm
As I read it the EU appear to have solved the MRL issues in regard to OA but for reasons unknown the further authorisation for it's use was left largely up to the individual countries to pursue the further authorisation of its use ... and the UK seem to be sadly lacking apart from eventually licencing Apibioxal.

"This decision opens the door for individual countries to promote a national authorisation of the use of oxalic acid or other products in the treatment against Varroa destructor. Thus shortly the legal application of oxalic acid as an ecological winter treatment will be available. This is an important milestone on the way to achieving the aim of an titleernative anti Varroa treatment breakthrough."


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I’m sure you remember what happened to Murray a few years ago and he was trying to work with the agencies
What?
My betting is you don't know the half of it
Blame is entirely laid at the feet of DEFRA/APHA or whatever they were at the time

You're making a mountain out of a molehill
 
Sounds a complete minefield, but perhaps now the ‘environment’ is about to change, so relevant bodies more open to lobbying. See screenshot on BBC news this morning re first interview with Boris since the deal
 

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"This decision opens the door for individual countries to promote a national authorisation of the use of oxalic acid or other products in the treatment against Varroa destructor

What is the idea in that? ... to treat varroa with oxalic acid with individual way?

You can do it now or not to do, and the law say nothing to it.
 
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Has anyone ever heard or knows anyone that has been prosecuted for using generic OA ?
Very doubtful as it leaves little or no residue.
People that use sublimation and do multiple treatments are breaking the same law as no product containing OA is licensed for multiple treatments.
It's a mountain out of a molehill situation, typical of beekeepers they become so obsessed with the minutia they generally miss the whole topic.
 
Sounds a complete minefield, but perhaps now the ‘environment’ is about to change, so relevant bodies more open to lobbying. See screenshot on BBC news this morning re first interview with Boris since the deal
And you believe anything that Johnson says?
Or the BBC for that matter
 
My last comment. There are procedures and laws in place that have been considered by various governments to be appropriate. I have pointed these out and reason why they are in place. You can write to your MP if don’t like them for all the good it will do. If you don’t want to follow then that is also an individual choice. If you get caught breaking the law then there are usually consequences, whether an individual feels there are mitigating circumstances or not.
 
As a food producer you have responsibility to known what you are putting into the food chain. Do you know who made your OA and what else is in it?

I’m sure you remember what happened to Murray a few years ago and he was trying to work with the agencies


Lol....that was 11.5 years ago now. The industry knew the correct story and circled the wagons admirably.

However..to Finny...I have an OA supplier in the UK who I can get (in theory of course!) 20Kg of OA dihydrate for GBP 64.50 including UK delivery. 20Kg goes quite a long way as a wood bleach.

As for the licensing of OA products (there is more than just api bioxal)...this is a stark example of how we get shafted in this country.

Until some bright spark decided to licence an OA treatment nobody was bothering about beekeeper use of the substance. Its is something found in honey anyway in small amounts. So there was NO pre existing imperative to prevent its use in beehives...and it is a cheap and fairly effective product used correctly.

Rather unfortunately, a figure in the amateur bee trade (maybe several but I know specifically of one) decided (anecdotal) we needed a licensed treatment for OA. There is something fishy about that but never got to the bottom of it. Its a long story I am not party to all of and in any case it makes my eyes glaze over...Upshot was Api Bioxal.

Now this is where the UK is a bit like a banana republic. They now work on user pays..as do many departments. Bees are crucial to the environment and crop pollination, our inputs to the economy far outweigh what we get out ourselves, so they (VMD) 'graciously' agreed to a reduced fee (still a lot). but this is almost like a tax on the product. Unlike VAT, which they charge on top, the fee is part of the product cost, so it multiplies at every step in the sales chain. If the fee comprises 40p a dose at the source cost, every time it is sold on the margin of the trader applies.....so by the time the beekeeper buys it he is paying a lot simply for the VMD approval and then VAT in addition.....tax on 'tax'. To most of you the distinction between VAT and VMD fee will be irrelevant as both are non recoverable but VAT registered people can get the VAT back...most bee farmers will. So at least half your cost goes..one way or the other...into the coffers of those professing to help us. Like fuel costs...most of it is duty and then they charge you VAT on top of the tax they are already charging...ouch!"

Part of the deal means that if you license a product all other non licensed formulations, including home made, despite being perfectly ok to use before immediately become non legal. (this is a grey area..they were never approved treatments..they just knew it was happening and did not act as there was no need to). The paying of a fee includes the understanding that any similar product not paying a fee will be enforced against. It is almost like a protection racket......

Upshot was a product for simple use was 35 times the cost one day than the same active substance was the day before. Not helpful...money right out of all of our pockets. A tax. On people they admit are contributors to the national wellbeing.

If there was nothing wrong with OA before the licensing of a product there is nothing but a red tape/financial barrier to it now. It is almost corrupt.

Its the same for other varroa treatments...........SO expensive here..and illegal to import them as the law specifically states that buying from a channel that circumvents the UK channel (which pays for the VMD) is not allowed...and cost is directly mentioned as one of the criteria that cannot be taken into account, so no matter how much the UK supplier charges..they have you by the sensitive bits. This is a seriously expensive country in which to be a beekeeper.

Going back all these years......when I privately sourced what had already been prescribed but not yet supplied...it was not animal health rules I infringed. It was the Finance Act. That's somewhat simplistic, but it was deemed a 'red tape offence' in court.

Its all about the money.
 
Sorry for the rant...if admin chooses to do so please feel free to remove......
Nope - in fact we may even make it a sticky 😁 , if nothing else it may serve to shut up the self righteous, or at least keep them at bay for a day or two.
 
What is the idea in that? ... to treat varroa with oxalic acid with individual way?

You can do it now or not to do, and the law say nothing to it.
No ... you've missed the point ... what the EU were saying was that they were happy that the MRL (Maximum Residue Levels) issues had been met and that it was then up to individual EU countries to licence products that utilised Oxalic Acid individually ... the UK, clearly, did not bother - or the costs and hassle of getting OA products through the UK Veterinary Medicines Directorate were prohibitive.
 
And you believe anything that Johnson says?
Or the BBC for that matter
As Environment Secretary, Michael Gove announced a draft Bill as “part of a wider programme of reform to cement the UK’s position as a global leader on animal welfare............... as we leave the EU.” We shall see.
On honey bees specifically according to DEFRA the Healthy Bees Plan 2030 was developed in consultation with bee health stakeholders (I wonder who they are??) and is aimed at sustaining the health of honey bees and beekeeping in England and Wales over the next decade. (Odd that neither Scotland or N.Ireland is included??)

The plan sets out four key outcomes to help protect honey bees:
  1. Effective biosecurity and good standards of husbandry, to minimise pest and disease risks and so improve the sustainability of honey bee populations.
  2. Enhanced skills and production capability/capacity of beekeepers and bee farmers.
  3. Sound science and evidence underpinning the actions taken to support bee health.
  4. Increased opportunities for knowledge exchange and partnership working on honey bee health and wider pollinator needs.
You can read it all hear Defra launches the Healthy Bees Plan 2030 to help protect honey bees
 
Perhaps we should all just continue to use what we have used for years without a problem, and just stay quiet about it.
After 40 years in medicine, I have seen common sense practices brought to the attention of bureaucrats and legislation introduced, by being talked about in the public eye.
I got out of general practice at the time I realised too much of the paperwork, had nothing to do with the direct welfar of my patients.
As ITLD says I refuse to pay protection money to the mob
 
is aimed at sustaining the health of honey bees and beekeeping in England and Wales over the next decade. (Odd that neither Scotland or N.Ireland is included??)
It's because the NBU doesn't cover Scotland and NI - they have their own departments
 
Sorry for the rant...if admin chooses to do so please feel free to remove......
No apologies necessary Murray ... your post elucidates exactly what I figured was the situation when I started this thread ... it's a ludicrous situation that actually encourages beekeepers (and particularly hobbyists) to use unlicensed alternatives. I'm not sure there is an answer to this particular conundrum ...
 
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