Oxalic Acid

[BugsInABox]

I’ve tried to follow this thread. Getting, I think, the niceties between licensed and non licensed but got lost at the distinctions in the non licensed products.
What is the difference, in terms of hive cleaning and possible affects on bees between these two products? Is a recommendation being made to use the reagent grade or are others using the cheaper off the shelf stuff?

 

[pargyle]

I’ve tried to follow this thread. Getting, I think, the niceties between licensed and non licensed but got lost at the distinctions in the non licensed products.
What is the difference, in terms of hive cleaning and possible affects on bees between these two products? Is a recommendation being made to use the reagent grade or are others using the cheaper off the shelf stuff?

Well ... that's a question ... even the wood cleaner is advertised as 99.6% pure ... so the question is what is the 0.04% impurtities left in there and what effect would these impurities have if this, rather than reagent quality OA, was used for cleaning hives.

Of course .. if you were using either of these for the treament of your bees they would both be illegal in the eyes of the VMD !

 

[Murox]

It's because the NBU doesn't cover Scotland and NI - they have their own departments

Their's me thinking National means relating to the whole of a country or nation rather than to part of it. Never figured out it only meant england and wales.

 

[Nige.Coll]

I’ve tried to follow this thread. Getting, I think, the niceties between licensed and non licensed but got lost at the distinctions in the non licensed products.
What is the difference, in terms of hive cleaning and possible affects on bees between these two products? Is a recommendation being made to use the reagent grade or are others using the cheaper off the shelf stuff?

Apibioxal is OA, silica and sugar. About 96% OA if I remember right. More than likely the same 99.6% stuff you can buy in buckets.
Before Apibioxal the 99.6% generic OA was perfectly fine to use. There is no need to use the majorly expensive reagent grade. It has been proven to be fine for decades.
If your using it in a varrox or sublimox or another heat source then any impurities will be burned off it's the dusting of the hive interior surfaces and bees that matters, leaving the fine particles to get stuck to the sticky moist feet and mouth parts of the varroa and burning their little legs and mouths off and entering their bloodstream and killing them.
If your using if to drizzle then it works in a similar way spread around by the bees grooming, the downside of drizzling is the bees will eat it because you've mixed it with syrup and it can cause them issues. The OA levels in a bees body do not kill the varroa as it would also kill the bee. Easy to overdose with trickling. OA and glycerine works also.

The generic OA will be fine for what ever use you have for it.
It may not be legal but many things aren't and it is only a problem when you get caught.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Their's me thinking National means relating to the whole of a country or nation rather than to part of it. Never figured out it only meant england and wales.

It's called devolution - Scotland got a better package than Wales
History tends to repeat itself

 

[clodhopper]

So if you use OA to keep your hive clean by sublimation regardless of weather you have Bees in the hive or not you are not braking the law. Happy new Year one and all .

 

[BugsInABox]

Of course .. if you were using either of these for the treament of your bees they would both be illegal in the eyes of the VMD !

That’s the bit I got. So accepting were talking about hive cleaning or hygiene or call it what we will - what do you all use?

 

[BugsInABox]

Ok thanks guys - the historic perspective answers my questions.

 

[Finman]

What is more dangerous over speed or oxalic acid.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What is more dangerous over speed or oxalic acid.

Not sure, never given my bees amphetamines
Does it kill varroa

 

[pargyle]

So if you use OA to keep your hive clean by sublimation regardless of weather you have Bees in the hive or not you are not braking the law. Happy new Year one and all .

Well ... at present that's a pretty grey area...

What you need to be careful of is the percentage of OA that could get in to your honey ... the prosecution would be based on the measured content of OA found in your honey as a result of this 'hive cleaning'. The VMD requires you to keep records of any medicines applied to your bees .... I don't think (apart from Murray all that time ago) that anyone else has been singled out for prosecution ... if you can demonstrate that you have only treated your bees with a licensed product in accordance with the manufacturers instruction and with the associated record keeping it would be difficult for anyone to bring a prosecution.

Obviously, avoiding cleaning hives when there is either honey in the supers or nectar being collected that could end up in the honey that is being taken off would be a wise move - so limited to autumn, winter and very early spring you would be fairly safe cleaning your hives .,.. but bear in mind the various manipulations we beekeepers do you would have to be very careful if you were encouraging your bees to move honey around the hive for any reason.

As has been said - if you were caught flagrantly breaking the law (and it is an offence to treat bees with an unlicenced product) you could end up being prosecuted.

Now, whether you are prepared to argue that you have not treated your bees with a medicine but they were simply innocent bystanders in your 'hive cleaning' antics - that's a test case I would like to see but it's not one I would like to be involved in. The first question I suspect would be asked is 'what is the cleaning benefit of Oxalic Acid by sublimation to the interior of an occupied bee hive ?'. If the answer to that was only the cleansing of varroa from the hive then .... are you treating the bees or the hive ?

I rather think that the VMD would be saying that it's the former rather than the latter.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Whilst I accept totally what you are saying - all I can find in the literature of Laif Chemicals is that it is Pharmaceutical Grade:

https://www.cari.be/medias/permanent/apibioxal_depliant_2011.pdf

Just as a thought. How do the powers that be test for illegal use of OA in the honey/beehive?
In the document above it states under the heading

Safe Product
Oxalic acid, the active ingredient of API-Bioxal, is a natural honey
constituent and its concentration in honey depends on the botanical
source. No increase of oxalic acid residues over the natural content
of honey is to be expected as a consequence of proper API-Bioxal
administration.
Oxalic acid is NOT subjected to a maximum residue limit (MRL) in the
honey (Reg. UE n° 37/2010 Tabella 1)
Api-Bioxal is authorised in Italy like Veterinary Medicine

So..... if the use of Apibioxal or presumably any other OA product doesn't increase its finger print within the hive how does anyone know any OA has been used?

 

[pargyle]

Just as a thought. How do the powers that be test for illegal use of OA in the honey/beehive?
In the document above it states under the heading

Safe Product
Oxalic acid, the active ingredient of API-Bioxal, is a natural honey
constituent and its concentration in honey depends on the botanical
source. No increase of oxalic acid residues over the natural content
of honey is to be expected as a consequence of proper API-Bioxal
administration.
Oxalic acid is NOT subjected to a maximum residue limit (MRL) in the
honey (Reg. UE n° 37/2010 Tabella 1)
Api-Bioxal is authorised in Italy like Veterinary Medicine

So..... if the use of Apibioxal or presumably any other AO product doesn't increase its finger print within the hive how does anyone know any AO has been used?

See above #71 ... posts crossed ..

 

[Newbeeneil]

See above #71 ... posts crossed ..

But it doesn't answer my question. If there is no change in the quantity of OA before and after treatment how would they know if you had treated?

 

[pargyle]

But it doesn't answer my question. If there is no change in the quantity of OA before and after treatment how would they know if you had treated?

They wouldn't unless someone told them you had been using an unlicenced product or a bee inspector decided to carry out an inspection and found a hive full of OA sublimate or they found an excessive quantity in a jar of your honey picked up as a sample by the FSA.

 

[Ian123]

But it doesn't answer my question. If there is no change in the quantity of OA before and after treatment how would they know if you had treated?

Because some admit it on a forum perhaps

 

[Newbeeneil]

Because some admit it on a forum perhaps

Not me! I have a all the documentation for my treatments, just a theoretical question!

 

[Finman]

Since then, when I joined to UK beekeeping forum, somebody has allways reminded that using oxalic acid is illegal. It is now allmost 20 years and this will not become better.

Allways somebody get his idea to start the debate.

 

[Amari]

Has anyone ever heard or knows anyone that has been prosecuted for using generic OA ?
Very doubtful as it leaves little or no residue.
People that use sublimation and do multiple treatments are breaking the same law as no product containing OA is licensed for multiple treatments.
It's a mountain out of a molehill situation, typical of beekeepers they become so obsessed with the minutia they generally miss the whole topic.

Has anyone ever heard or knows anyone who has been prosecuted by the VMD for not keeping proper records of medicines given to bees? It is a statutary requirement after all.

If there any beeks who do keep records and use generic OA, I wonder what they enter on the record?

 

[Apple]

Stick to Vimto with added rhubarb leaves extract or use rhubarb leaf extract in your vaporiser and you will be beyond the law... when or if you get prosecuted by the VDMA or whoever... you can plead deminished responsibility... or Dave told you it was OK !!!