Oxalic Acid

[Erichalfbee]

What are such quality standards. From Where you got that idea?
Never seen about such standard after using OA 20 years. What is the difference between pure industrial oxalic acid.

It’s used as a reagent amongst other things and is pretty expensive

 

[Finman]

Oxalic Acid Crystals - Welcome to Abelo's Beekeeping Supplies

Abelo OA 300g is £ 8.50

In Finland Honeypaw 1000 g is £ 9.

Such business

 

[Erichalfbee]

Abelo OA 300g is £ 8.50

In Finland Honeypaw 1000 g is £ 9.

Such business

 

[Mint Bee]

What are such quality standards. From Where you got that idea?
Never seen about such standard after using OA 20 years. What is the difference between pure industrial oxalic acid.

An education and 30 years + experience in the pharmaceutical industry. If you don’t look you will never know. I’m surprised with your scientific qualification you have not come across this
If it’s Ph Eur quality it’s made to a defined standard in terms of purity and contaminates, and should be made to GMP. Means you won’t get high levels of nitric acid and vanadium, used in the synthesis, in the final OA. Can you garentee this of for any old OA?

 

[Apple]

An education and 30 years + experience in the pharmaceutical industry. If you don’t look you will never know. I’m surprised with your scientific qualification you have not come across this
If it’s Ph Eur quality it’s made to a defined standard in terms of purity and contaminates, and should be made to GMP. Means you won’t get high levels of nitric acid and vanadium, used in the synthesis, in the final OA. Can you garentee this of for any old OA?

Which one of the 7 oxidation states of Vanadium is the problem?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Which one of the 7 oxidation states of Vanadium is the problem?

All of them Apple
You have to use Apibioxal. It has none

 

[madasafish]

Oxalic Acid Crystals - Welcome to Abelo's Beekeeping Supplies

Out of interest, can you just stick these into a sublimator and get the same effect as Apibioxal?

Or would the machine blow up

I don't have one, I am just curious

Pure Oxalic Acid leaves no residue when heated and vapourised.
ApiBioxal leaves a sticky residue which is a pia to clean..unless you use kitchen foil.

Vanadium is the key ingredient of large (GWatts) scale storage batteries (You read it here first)

 

[robmort]

All of them Apple
You have to use Apibioxal. It has none

There is no such thing as "none" in any material, or "pure" for that matter. There is a maximum level of impurity defined and it depends how much impurity there is relative to the minimum.

 

[pargyle]

Oxalic Acid Crystals - Welcome to Abelo's Beekeeping Supplies

Out of interest, can you just stick these into a sublimator and get the same effect as Apibioxal?

Or would the machine blow up

I don't have one, I am just curious

Yes ... in fact it's better becaause without all the additives they put into apibioxal it sublimates easier and there are no gummy deposits left in the device you are using to sublmimate.

 

[Mint Bee]

There is no such thing as "none" in any material, or "pure" for that matter. There is a maximum level of impurity defined and it depends how much impurity there is relative to the minimum.

Equal or less than 5 ppm total heavy metal for the OA Ph Eur spec
One of my former colleagues would describe that as four fifths of FA

Apibioxal is 88.6% OA, plus silica and glucose, which is why it gunks up the pan after use. The Abelo OA doesn’t specify grade or purity.

 

[pargyle]

What are such quality standards. From Where you got that idea?
Never seen about such standard after using OA 20 years. What is the difference between pure industrial oxalic acid.

There probably is none - it's just British standards that supposedly guarantee the purity and in the the case of ISO9001 confirm that the supply chain and the quality assurance procedures are documented and in place. ISO14001 has more to do with Environmental standards being maintained in the production and delivery procedures and is a bolt on to ISO9001. I've had to work with (and have my company Quality Assured) under these standards. I've also worked with BS5750 which was the only BS production standard available before ISO9001 and was a whole lot more onerous ... ISO9001 is a doddle compared to BS5750 ... when I first approached the prospect about how to becoame ISO9001 QA assured and what I needed ... the first answer I got was 'A cheque book'.. It's more about being well documented and keeping records than it is about the quality of the actual product.

 

[Finman]

Bees are not only, where oxalic acid is used and systems needs purity. Oxalic acid is not expencive and how somebody could sell "dirty chemicals", and write onto package pure 100 %.

I think that guys are inventing their own rules. Oxalic acid has been used really long time for bees, and this is first time, when I read about fake OA.

 

[Finman]

An education and 30 years + experience in the pharmaceutical industry.

Yeah. I know beekeepers, who have had over 1000 hives and they have used oxalic acid 20 years. Why they do not inform about purity standards?

Beekeeping does not need chemical industry experience.

Using oxalic acid on bees have reseached really much during last 20 years.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

There probably is none - it's just British standards that supposedly guarantee the purity and in the the case of ISO9001 confirm that the supply chain and the quality assurance procedures are documented and in place. ISO14001 has more to do with Environmental standards being maintained in the production and delivery procedures and is a bolt on to ISO9001. I've had to work with (and have my company Quality Assured) under these standards. I've also worked with BS5750 which was the only BS production standard available before ISO9001 and was a whole lot more onerous ... ISO9001 is a doddle compared to BS5750 ... when I first approached the prospect about how to becoame ISO9001 QA assured and what I needed ... the first answer I got was 'A cheque book'.. It's more about being well documented and keeping records than it is about the quality of the actual product.

ISO 9001 was explained to me as "It means that if you follow your documented procedures, you will produce a safe product or service that meets the customer's requirements" - it does not necessarily mean that your product is safe and meets the customer's requirements. I think that's the essential difference between quality assurance and quality control.

As to the possibility of vanadium, in small quantities, being in the vaporised OA, as it's applied topically, the bees are not eating the stuff and it's not getting into the honey, does it matter? I'm not a chemist so I don't know.

CVB

 

[pargyle]

ISO 9001 was explained to me as "It means that if you follow your documented procedures, you will produce a safe product or service that meets the customer's requirements" - it does not necessarily mean that your product is safe and meets the customer's requirements. I think that's the essential difference between quality assurance and quality control.

As to the possibility of vanadium, in small quantities, being in the vaporised OA, as it's applied topically, the bees are not eating the stuff and it's not getting into the honey, does it matter? I'm not a chemist so I don't know.

CVB

Exactly, and ISO 9001 is mainly self inspection ... once a year you need to pay for an external inspection - usually half a day at which they look mainly at your records, your written procedures and any amendments documented since the previous inspection. They will pick up a couple of random procedures and 'test' them against what acually happens but I have to say, the procedural manuals are pretty skeletal and as long as you are fairly religious about keeping the procedures up to date if you fundamentally change something then it is more about the procedures than the quality of the finished product. You have to document your supply chain and your suppliers should also be ISO9001 Quality Assured unless they are supplying a raw material - in which case they should be able to provide source provenance.

But ... the white elephant in the room is whether or not Apibioxal has as it's source ingredient medical/pharmaceutical grade Oxalic Acid or the 'Pure OA' that I buy for cleaning my boat's hull and deck ~ not that there appears to be a great deal of difference it would seem.

I can't see anywhere in the VMD documentation I provided links to originally where it specifies what grade of OA is being used in the product ...

I can see that I've opened a can of worms here !

 

[Apiarisnt]

FYI

 

[Mint Bee]

Yeah. I know beekeepers, who have had over 1000 hives and they have used oxalic acid 20 years. Why they do not inform about purity standards?

Beekeeping does not need chemical industry experience.

Using oxalic acid on bees have reseached really much during last 20 years.

As a food producer you have responsibility to known what you are putting into the food chain. Do you know who made your OA and what else is in it?

I’m sure you remember what happened to Murray a few years ago and he was trying to work with the agencies

 

[Finman]

Do you know who made your OA and what else is in it

If I know who made, is it then any better.
Show to me one, who has poisoned honey food chain with oxalic acid.

Now, it is better that you give this case to to heath authorities. It is not meant to an ordinary shoe consumer.

 

[Mint Bee]

Phil, ISO9001 is just the start for medicinal manufacturing. Lots more layers and hoops to get through. The quality of the OA would have been detailed in the marketing application, together with how it’s tested for and controlled. I can’t open the epar attatchment above, but this is the summary of the agencies accessment of the Markering application

 

[Mint Bee]

You invent these from your own head.
If I know who made, is it then any better.
Show to me one, who has poisoned honey food chain with oxalic acid

Finny, I know you are an expert in everything, but in the UK any treatments given to food producing animals are legally required to be recorded. If you are buying and using any old OA you are outside of the law that’s there to prevent contamination of honey. Not in my head, written in law

I’m sure the Finish medicines agency (FIMEA) has the same basis in law, and last time I looked European food standards agency covered Finland.

However, i’m Sure you know better