Oxalic Acid

[pargyle]

Hi John,

No victimisation from me .. I think your invention is an effective and well thought out delivery method for sublimating OA. I'm going to make one ! But ... You are being a bit naive suggesting that the 'purchaser' of the product has sole responsibility for it's safe use. Whilst we are not in the same litigious society as the USA yet we are rapidly following in pursuit - why do you think McDonalds put the 'hot liquid' warning on their coffee cups ? It's bloody obvious but purchasers need/have to be warned.

You need to look very closely at the regulations that cover any products that are sold in the UK (and currently EU) - and the manufacturer's liability. Look at the reams of 'H&S' instructions that are included with virtually any product that, if used incorrectly, can cause harm. Some of them you would think are just common sense but the reason they are there is because the manufacturer (and indirectly) the retailer face being sued to the point of extinction if an idiot does something stupid. The Health & Safety executive get involved and the next thing you find you are facing a criminal prosecution for 'lack of duty of care to the Public'... look up the potential prison sentence !

I've been in the dock when one of my employees did something stupid and devoid of any common sense - he died - I ended up on the wrong end of the prosecution and was left with no option but to plead guilty. The basic premise of the HSE is that you need to prove that you took ALL REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS to prevent what happened - and the reality is that even when you have - (and I HAD !) if you can't trust the person to have fully understood what they are supposed to do ... YOU are guilty.

From your viewpoint I would be taking some very serious advice about the legality of what you intend bringing to market and more importantly how you ensure that it is used safely by the purchaser. Nobody on here would wish you anything but the greatest success with the sublimator you are making and selling but you are not in China selling something on ebay and shipping it from the other side of the world. You are in the UK (and currently EU) manufacturing and selling - you need to be aware of the risks you face.

Me ? .. I'm not qualiified to give you any further advice - you need some specialist assistance. What you are making has the potential to kill or maime .. be careful please.

 

[Stiffy]

Hi John,

No victimisation from me .. I think your invention is an effective and well thought out delivery method for sublimating OA. I'm going to make one ! But ... You are being a bit naive suggesting that the 'purchaser' of the product has sole responsibility for it's safe use. Whilst we are not in the same litigious society as the USA yet we are rapidly following in pursuit - why do you think McDonalds put the 'hot liquid' warning on their coffee cups ? It's bloody obvious but purchasers need/have to be warned.

You need to look very closely at the regulations that cover any products that are sold in the UK (and currently EU) - and the manufacturer's liability. Look at the reams of 'H&S' instructions that are included with virtually any product that, if used incorrectly, can cause harm. Some of them you would think are just common sense but the reason they are there is because the manufacturer (and indirectly) the retailer face being sued to the point of extinction if an idiot does something stupid. The Health & Safety executive get involved and the next thing you find you are facing a criminal prosecution for 'lack of duty of care to the Public'... look up the potential prison sentence !

I've been in the dock when one of my employees did something stupid and devoid of any common sense - he died - I ended up on the wrong end of the prosecution and was left with no option but to plead guilty. The basic premise of the HSE is that you need to prove that you took ALL REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS to prevent what happened - and the reality is that even when you have - (and I HAD !) if you can't trust the person to have fully understood what they are supposed to do ... YOU are guilty.

From your viewpoint I would be taking some very serious advice about the legality of what you intend bringing to market and more importantly how you ensure that it is used safely by the purchaser. Nobody on here would wish you anything but the greatest success with the sublimator you are making and selling but you are not in China selling something on ebay and shipping it from the other side of the world. You are in the UK (and currently EU) manufacturing and selling - you need to be aware of the risks you face.

Me ? .. I'm not qualiified to give you any further advice - you need some specialist assistance. What you are making has the potential to kill or maime .. be careful please.

Sorry to say but I agree. Its a very different prospect selling or giving a bit of kit to 'friends' than selling on the open market. For example, we used to make wax based cosmetics until we were directed to the legislation and decided it really wasn't worth the risk or indeed the expense. We now buy in from a local producer at a reasonable price and retail.
S

 

[Beefriendly]

feeling very victimized here,

in defense of my invention the gasvap- it is copper pipe, it is inert, it can not cause harm of any kind
the gas torch i recommend is CE approved

the demonstration i have provided is using empty hives demonstrating the effectiveness of the vaporization

this is just another OA method of treatment

my literature states to use approved OA products and follow sensible safety precautions

As Pargyle says you are being a bit naive here. I'm not trying to detract from what you are doing but think you may have jumped the gun a bit.
The fact the gas torch is CE approved is exactly the sort of standard approval you you should be seeking for your invention.
Look if you are selling goods the basic minimum you require is some form of product liability insurance, no 2 questions about it.
This is to cover you against injury or damage caused specifically by an item you have manufactured, sold or supplied.
It's one thing selling a few to "mates" but commerce has it's own set of rules and standards.As a seller you have a duty of care to your customers.
Please don't think I'm trying to be negative. I 'm trying to give you some good advice based on many years selling. Up to you whether you take any notice of it.

 

[john t]

what im trying to get across is the gasvap is just another way to apply OA
on its own it is copper pipe, used with a blowtorch and approved product it kills varroa,
as with any chemical you must take appropriate safety precautions

so if OA vaporisation is thought to be highly dangerous why is the rest of the world using it as a method of choice ?

https://www.dadant.com/epa-okays-oxalic-acid-for-varroa-mite-control/

they say the uk is several years behind the US,

Pargyle, when you have made your own and have tested it,let us know

 

[Poly Hive]

OA is not thought to be dangerous John it IS! End of.

As Pargyle says you are in a serious minefield.

When I had the guest house we hosted an Italian lawyer who was a partner in a concrete product company. They wanted to start production in the UK as their logistics to the UK from Poland were hurting them badly.

He had not a clue about HSE regs and was horrified when I explained to him that there are a great deal of them and they had to be followed. Seemingly not the case in either Italy or Poland. We never heard from him again so we assumed the project died at that hurdle.

Be VERY careful please as there are major issues confronting you.

PH

 

[BMH]

what im trying to get across is the gasvap is just another way to apply OA
on its own it is copper pipe, used with a blowtorch and approved product it kills varroa,
as with any chemical you must take appropriate safety precautions

so if OA vaporisation is thought to be highly dangerous why is the rest of the world using it as a method of choice ?

https://www.dadant.com/epa-okays-oxalic-acid-for-varroa-mite-control/

they say the uk is several years behind the US,

Pargyle, when you have made your own and have tested it,let us know

You're missing the point.

What happens if the copper cap fires off and hits someone in the eye and blinds them.

That is on you and noone else. Its all well and good saying the copper is inert, but the method of use, that you advocate, isnt thoroughly tested and approved, thus you are liable for any injury through use or misuse.

 

[Beefriendly]

what im trying to get across is the gasvap is just another way to apply OA

That is irrelevant if that method of delivery is not approved.
Not allowed in UK to apply OA that way, it has to be apibioxal. Which will gum and tar your device up in very little time.

At the very least ring up an insurance company and talk to them about product liability insurance. If they think there is no issues it should cost you less than £100 per year. If they won't touch you with a barge-pole...then you have your answer.


I suspect the other thing you may not have thought of is how you are going to take card payments.
If you already have a visa reader, fine, but if not you are going to find out how we are rapidly becoming a cashless society.

You are getting some very good free advice, please take a little notice of it.

 

[madasafish]

If you are selling any product which can cause harm in any way if it goes wrong (eg a faulty joint), you need a testing program in place which references each product made by serial number and test results.

If you do not have that and are selling to consumers - which you are - you will be liable for damages if anyone is hurt. Period. And the HSE will throw the book at you as the above is a BASIC requirement for manufacture of any product which can blow up/leak noxious gases/electrocute the user etc... You HAVE to test it and you HAVE to document that test and you HAVE to have a serial number so each product is uniquely identified...

A simple blowlamp does not need that: but your combination of pipes and chemicals could leak gases into someone's face .Or worse.

And then you need to give to every user a statement of how to use it.And safety precautions..

If you own any assets and get sued - and don't have the above in place, you will be a tempting target for lawyers to extract your assets.

But don't take my word: I suggest you consult a specialist..

 

[Finman]

.
How dangerous is oxalic acid to lungs?

I have done an experiment with bleeding wound. Very small amount acid stops bleeding at once. A bigger amount kills the skin cells. Tissue turns black.

You could imagine to the lung epithel if oxalic dust goes deep into the lungs.

 

[pargyle]

Well ... just once in a while we have agreement from people who rarely agree !!! Fabulous ... hopefully John will understand - I think everyone on here will applaud what appears to be a very effective way of delivering OA - At this stage our worries are more for John than the people who may use it. Personally - I would have looked at whether the device is patentable and then sold the rights of manufacturer to a company who could do it within their own product portfolio and built in a Royalty - sadly a bit late for that now as it is in the public domain.

 

[BKF Admin]

I am really sorry I had to close the last thread.
My understanding is that a product is licenced (such as a blowtorch) for its intended use only,such as blowing pipe fittings removing paint ect.
As soon as it is used for any other purpose thats when the problems start.


Say I purchased a toaster and used it to keep my hands warm by placing my fingers into it and was badly burned,would I have any recourse against the manufacturer for my injuries ?


It really is nothing personal and I like the idea,its just that as a forum admin I have to hold a level of responsability towards our members.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

what im trying to get across is the gasvap is just another way to apply OA
on its own it is copper pipe, used with a blowtorch and approved product it kills varroa,
know

A shotgun, 'on it's own' is just a steel tube
That steel tube still needs to go to a proof house to ensure it won't blow up in one's face.

If someone obtains a steel tube,it's just a steel tube, if he blocks one end, stuffs it full of gunpowder and shot and either kills themselves using it, or kills someone else. It's their fault.
If, however, you sell that person an inert steel tube with one end blocked off and tell them they 'could' stuff some gunpodwer in it....you are also guilty of a crime

 

[Olivia9801]

Aighh Aighh... Thats the end of “Gasvap” then!

 

[Millet]

Aighh Aighh... Thats the end of “Gasvap” then!

Nope..nothing wrong with the device it is a brilliant idea.. i know it may have liability issues for folk in there 90's...but it is a dam good bit of kit that has made my life so much easier...well done again John...

 

[Karol]

So this is the point where I become a bit of a hypocrite and say that in the absence of independent testing/evaluation there is no clinical or safety evidence supporting the use of the device. Whilst there is no regulatory mechanism in the UK currently for controlling veterinary medical devices, there are regulatory controls for the administration of licensed veterinary medical products. Simply bunging in an aliquot of OA into an uncontrolled heat source is likely to produce variable results. Any idea for example if there is any reaction between oxidized copper and OA. Any idea whether a quick high dose burst of OA is better than a longer slower lower dose of OA in terms of distribution of crystals throughout the hive. Any idea of the difference in heat settings based on gas flow that provides optimum sublimation whilst limiting degradation etc etc etc.

In terms of safety, occupationally inhaled OA is likely to damage lung tissue which in turn may lead to iatrogenic (drug induced) pulmonary (lung) fibrosis (scarring/thickening). Basically lungs have to remain elastic to inflate. Scarring which causes thickening of lung tissue prevents the lungs from inflating which results in long slow suffocation and typically life expectancy is circa three years once diagnosed. OA inhalation effects are likely to be cumulative so lots of 'small' mildly irritating exposures over time will be the ones that are likely to lead to iatrogenic pulmonary fibrosis.

The device might well be 'convenient' to use but if this is the first season that it's been used, how does one know how effective it's been until hive survival is measured come late spring/summer when surviving Varroa populations are likely to manifest themselves in the absence of extensive invasive tests to measure lethality on Varroa? Varroa drop post treatment is not a conclusive measure to go by and I very much doubt anyone has done invasive positive control evaluation of actual mite counts before and after treatment.

So, a big thumbs up for coming up with the invention but a big word of caution in prematurely promoting and selling a veterinary medical device which has not been validated for use in delivering a veterinary medicinal product.

 

[iann41]

A shotgun, 'on it's own' is just a steel tube
That steel tube still needs to go to a proof house to ensure it won't blow up in one's face.

If someone obtains a steel tube,it's just a steel tube, if he blocks one end, stuffs it full of gunpowder and shot and either kills themselves using it, or kills someone else. It's their fault.
If, however, you sell that person an inert steel tube with one end blocked off and tell them they 'could' stuff some gunpodwer in it....you are also guilty of a crime

well summed up

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You're missing the point.

What happens if the copper cap fires off and hits someone in the eye and blinds them.

That is on you and noone else. Its all well and good saying the copper is inert, but the method of use, that you advocate, isnt thoroughly tested and approved, thus you are liable for any injury through use or misuse.

 

[papa_sierra]

John, I made up and have used, with appropriate gear, your excellent idea. Very many thanks.

I will not join in with the previous comments, but will add a thought of my own.
I have a couple of hives with supers on and would not want them to remain as honey storage items in the coming season having been subjected to oxalic acid sublimation. So these will be removed very shortly, cleaned and fitted with new foundation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have a couple of hives with supers on and would not want them to remain as honey storage items in the coming season having been subjected to oxalic acid sublimation. So these will be removed very shortly, cleaned and fitted with new foundation.

Why on earth would you want to do that?

 

[john t]

Admin, i do understand your position on deleting my posts so no problem, a pm would have been useful

contributors to the threads, your views have been taken into consideration, even though i may not agree 100 % i do value your input, and i will certainly make adjustments to my approach in certain areas.

thank you for all those who have tested the device, either made their own or one of mine, your feedback has been very rewarding and my efforts worthwhile
from a practical level you are the most informed and know its value

i have had a lot of private support and messages since i first brought brought the gasvap to the forum, i know most dont want to post on the forum for reasons i wont go into here which is a shame,

the gasvap will be around for as long as there is a demand sadly not advertised on this forum ,

my next project is 50% completed and once it has been thoroughly tested i will give an update ,and possibly construction details
some will be pleased that it has nothing to do with gasvap or varroa,
i believe it will revolutionize beekeeping in this particular area.


john t