Will mites become resistant to oxalic acid?

[Hachi]

We can see a spread of dangerous virus which ends in dead hives, but that do not automatically indicate that the oxalic acid itself does a less effective job. Here are more factors, like the location of the varroa during the treatment. Are the varroa sitting under the abdomen between the sections or on top of the bee? Is it likely to belive that the varroa move around during a period of 2 months and can be more exposed to the treatment by two treatments compare to one. The dripping is no rocket science - you have no warranty to hit every single bee with oxalic acid solution by one treatment. Yes, we are in a way selecting for varroa able to avoid the treatment if all are hiding under the adomen because located there, they will be better protected compare to be riding on top of the bee. On the other hand, if 2 treatments expose the varroa for the oxalic acid and gives a better effect, it is is worth researching.

Maybe lucky mites pass on their luck to their offspring.

They couldn't explain why but I think its probably similar to the argument about a rat somewhere will survive a nuclear holocaust and I don't mean the two legged variety.

 

[Murox]

Maybe lucky mites pass on their luck to their offspring.

Ah designated survivors, or is that designated successors?

 

[Erichalfbee]

e seem to be to hell bent on eliminating every single varroa when in reality they are here to stay,

I don’t think most of us do that at all.
Those that treat do so once a year
( possibly with a winter Tx) and let the bees cope the rest of the time.
I do take advantage of brood-less periods in splits and swarms by giving them one vape but that is simply to give them a good start.

 

[Hachi]

I don’t think most of us do that at all.
Those that treat do so once a year
( possibly with a winter Tx) and let the bees cope the rest of the time.
I do take advantage of brood-less periods in splits and swarms by giving them one vape but that is simply to give them a good start.

Agreed. Also the mites ability in terms of numbers to "explode" coupled with honey production and harvest means the beek must seize on every window of opportunity to control the pesky critters.

 

[Mint Bee]

Hi, I was just using the antibiotics as a point to get across. We seem to be to hell bent on eliminating every single varroa when in reality they are here to stay, we need to be more like a GP and prescribe what the bees need. This obviously takes knowledge and understanding your bees. Ask 10 beekeepers a question and you will get 10 different answers

personally, i think any beekeeper who thinks they either don't have varroa, or can eliminate all mites is very deluded. They do exist though. The only way to eliminate all varroa is to eliminate their food source - the bees, and prevent re infestation from the infected hive by robbing. No treatment manufacturer claims that their treatment is 100% effective in the first place. Treatment (however you do it) is about reducing the mite population to a level whereby the mite population does not reach a critical mass to impact the bees prior to the next mite treatment.

I thought the accepted number of different answers that you got from a group of beekeepers was at least n + 2

 

[Skinfaxi]

In horticulturee crop protection products are expected or known to only kill i think 50 % pests number after treatment. Never 100%.

personally, i think any beekeeper who thinks they either don't have varroa, or can eliminate all mites is very deluded. They do exist though. The only way to eliminate all varroa is to eliminate their food source - the bees, and prevent re infestation from the infected hive by robbing. No treatment manufacturer claims that their treatment is 100% effective in the first place. Treatment (however you do it) is about reducing the mite population to a level whereby the mite population does not reach a critical mass to impact the bees prior to the next mite treatment.

I thought the accepted number of different answers that you got from a group of beekeepers was at least n +

 

[masterBK]

If acids (oxalic, formic etc) lower the pH of the body fluids of the mite then this will affect the 3 dimensional shape of their enzymes which basically work on a sort of lock and key principle with their chemical substrates. A change in shape would thus render them ineffective or less effective and vital chemical reactions would not occur resulting in death.

 

[Beesnaturally]

A few years back there was a scientific paper, stating that, by not medicating your bees, the viral load produced, harms our other species of bees because varroa act as a vector for viruses.
This is an area that hasn't been researched enough and it is unclear in which direction the viral load travels. It could be that honeybees are the problem, but it could also be bumblebees. That was why there was a recommendation to medicate.

Then its a good plan to maintain our bees in a state of treatment-dependency by continually treating them?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Then its a good plan to maintain our bees in a state of treatment-dependency by continually treating them

glad you've finally seen sense

 

[Beesnaturally]

glad you've finally seen sense

Note the question mark....

 

[Murox]

Then its a good plan to maintain our bees in a state of treatment-dependency by continually treating them?

How many covid/ influenza/ polio/ and other vaccines have you had ??

 

[user 20297]

Note the question mark....

I've seen @jenkinsbrynmair and his statements being questioned before, but that's the first time I've seen him called a "question mark".

 

[Beesnaturally]

How many covid/ influenza/ polio/ and other vaccines have you had ??

I personally am not open-breeding livestock or wild animal.

See if you can figure out why that makes a difference

 

[Anduril]

Then its a good plan to maintain our bees in a state of treatment-dependency by continually treating them?

As I stated there has not been enough research into other bee species and the viral load, varroa act as a vector for these viruses and by not treating, it may harm our other wild bees who are more fragile than the honeybee. You use the term treatment-dependency to justify your cause. This may just be good practice, which helps other species.

 

[Beesnaturally]

As I stated there has not been enough research into other bee species and the viral load, varroa act as a vector for these viruses and by not treating, it may harm our other wild bees who are more fragile than the honeybee. You use the term treatment-dependency to justify your cause. This may just be good practice, which helps other species.

How does perpetuating viruses in honeybees help wild bees that may be vulnerable to the same viruses?

(I'm dubious about this proposition btw, and I'd like to see the study. Honeybees are made more vulnerable to certain viruses as a result of wounds made by mites. Since those mites are particular to honeybees only I'm struggling to see how the viruses are vectored to wild bees)

 

[Anduril]

By good practice I was implying the medicated treatment of bees.
Here is an article which includes a link to a study and the data that was collected, look at the last 2 damning paragraghs.
https://www.iflscience.com/commerci...ions-to-wild-bumblebees-through-flowers-52901

 

[Beesnaturally]

By good practice I was implying the medicated treatment of bees.
Here is an article which includes a link to a study and the data that was collected, look at the last 2 damning paragraghs.
https://www.iflscience.com/commerci...ions-to-wild-bumblebees-through-flowers-52901

The 'damning' paragraphs:
"As livestock, honey bees need to be monitored and treated when necessary. Imagine being a farmer of cows or chickens and not treating your livestock for a parasite infestation."

Cows and chickens are 'closed breeding populations'.

I imagine you are familiar with this concept? I'm sure too you can appreciate the implications of treatment on an open breeding population?

"If you aren't willing to put in the work to monitor and treat your bees, you could actually be harming wild bee populations instead of helping them.""

The keyterm here is 'could'.

--------------------------------------

Below I offer a counterpoint. It is a lightly redacted copy of a response I had a few years ago from a very highly respected honeybee researcher:

Dear Dr.
I wonder if I could possible ask for a moment of your time to help with an issue I think may also be of interest to you.
I was very interested to you speak [...] about the necessity of isolation from treated colonies in order to pursue resistance to varroa and other pests and diseases. I have a relatively isolated apiary of about 100 colonies raised from local feral bees using Dr. Kefus' methods (natural selection, selective reproduction) built up over 6 years. This venture follows some 15 years of independent study of the problem of treatment-dependence. Progress is very promising.

I'm currently engaging with a local ecological charity [...]) with a view to addressing a related question, and I wondered if I could possible ask you for your brief thoughts? If I could take the liberty of outlining the issue. The engagement is intended to address the following question:

Given that treated colonies tend to downgrade local feral colonies, is it not likely that to place (treatment-dependent) hives in ecologically sensitive areas in order to improve native seed and berry production is counterproductive?

YES. I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. HOW COUNTERPRODUCTIVE WILL DEPEND ON THE NUMBERS. IF THE ADDITIONAL COLONIES WOULD CONSTITUTE ONLY A FEW PERCENT (LESS THAN 10%) OF THE EXISTING POPULATION, THEN OF COURSE THE IMPACT WILL BE SMALL.

ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WITH HONEY BEES IS THAT IDEALLY WE HAVE WHOLE LANDSCAPES WHERE THE BEES ARE LEFT ALONE, HENCE ARE SHAPED BY NATURAL SELECTION. THE MATING FLIGHTS OF QUEENS AND DRONES CAN EXTEND OUT SEVERAL MILES EACH, SO INTRODUCING TREATED COLONIES WITHIN SEVERAL MILES OF YOUR COLONIES WILL HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE GENETICS OF YOUR COLONIES. THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT I WRESTLE WITH IN [...]. THERE IS ONE COMMERCIAL BEEKEEPER WHO HAS PUT AN APIARY JUST OUTSIDE [...]. IT HAS ABOUT 15 COLONIES. FORTUNATELY, GIVEN THE DENSITY OF WILD COLONIES (2.5 PER SQUARE MILE), HIS COLONIES CONSTITUTE ONLY A FEW PERCENT OF ALL THE COLONIES IN THE 100 SQUARE MILE AREA OF WILD LAND THAT SURROUNDS AND INCLUDES THE [...] (location).

It seems to me that, in some settings at least, this action might suppress feral colonies offering pollination services to a greater degree than the colonies would compensate.

AGREED.

Quite apart from any consequences in terms of the importance of development of natural resistance, this issue has an importance here in the UK, as honey bees have always been an integral part of the ecology.
--------------------------------

I wonder if you can see the relavance of that exchange to this issue.

 

[Anduril]

In response, you would be quite happy to damage the fragile balance of wild bee populations in your area. I'm not talking about honeybees, but bumblebees, black queen cell virus in particular, which can be transmitted across.

 

[Beesnaturally]

In response, you would be quite happy to damage the fragile balance of wild bee populations in your area. I'm not talking about honeybees, but bumblebees, black queen cell virus in particular, which can be transmitted across.

I don't know how you read that from what I posted.

BTW there is evidence to support the faily obvious notion that in the short term having lots of hives in a small area suppresses wild pollinator populations. Given that your paper addresses only highly concentrated colony numbers, that is something else you might want to try to factor in.

 

[Anduril]

I don't know how you read that from what I posted.

BTW there is evidence to support the faily obvious notion that in the short term having lots of hives in a small area suppresses wild pollinator populations. Given that your paper addresses only highly concentrated colony numbers, that is something else you might want to try to factor in.

That is but one study and your 100 colonies in an apiary, would suggest highly concentrated numbers.