Will mites become resistant to oxalic acid?

[user 20297]

Haven't read the above in detail but Randy Oliver is perhaps an SME on Varroa having scientifically tested and continues to test I think varroa control methods, plus running scientific studies for the development of resistant bees.

Has Rusty shared her thoughts &/or work with him do you know or is it just an opinion?

Also, the University of Georgia with support from Bob Binnie has completed a number of scientific studies looking at the effects of OA on bees. For example, a single dose of OA trickling is recommended and the amount of OA in the solution needs careful mngt or it would have a detrimental effect on your colony. They have also looked at the vaping doses and found up to 8 grams used on a hive has no detrimental effect on the bees. Vaping is obviously a different delivery mechanism.

Her comment isn't an opinion or scientific judgement on the use of oxalic; it's just a musing on the fact that odds are, nature will find a way around things.

 

[Newbeeneil]

That's shocking.
They should all be rounded up ,put in a field and bombed.

Yeah, I think that would sort the mites out!

 

[Antipodes]

If you dose at 1gram, some phoretic mites survive don't they? If so, could that encourage resistance?

 

[Antipodes]

Her comment isn't an opinion or scientific judgement on the use of oxalic; it's just a musing on the fact that odds are, nature will find a way around things.

It will work the other way around too wouldn't it? The bees finding a way around the mites? Australian bees (according to Bob Binnie) do badly in the USA compared to their bees that have been exposed to the mite for several decades.

 

[user 20297]

It will work the other way around too wouldn't it? The bees finding a way around the mites? Australian bees (according to Bob Binnie) do badly in the USA compared to their bees that have been exposed to the mite for several decades.

You've opened a bag of worms there......... Bob Binnie implies that bees are adapting to deal with mites, and that, within decades rather than millennia?

 

[Sutty]

It will work the other way around too wouldn't it? The bees finding a way around the mites? Australian bees (according to Bob Binnie) do badly in the USA compared to their bees that have been exposed to the mite for several decades.

Only works if we favour breeding from bees that deal with them better to allow selection to work. Ideally cull colonies that deal with them poorly.

 

[Antipodes]

Only works if we favour breeding from bees that deal with them better to allow selection to work. Ideally cull colonies that deal with them poorly

My thoughts are that there is a background level of this happening even without the beekeepers making any special effort, due to fact that some (probably quite a few) colonies are neglected to fend for themselves. Would that be right?

 

[Sutty]

My thoughts are that there is a background level of this happening even without the beekeepers making any special effort, due to fact that some (probably quite a few) colonies are neglected to fend for themselves. Would that be right?

That's my thought too, there will always be wild colonies as well as neglected ones. Hopefully honeybees will adapt to cope in the long run, though it's not yet guaranteed, they could become extinct instead with or without management - remember the mite will be evolving too!

 

[Hachi]

My thoughts are that there is a background level of this happening even without the beekeepers making any special effort, due to fact that some (probably quite a few) colonies are neglected to fend for themselves. Would that be right?

Doubtful, we've had the problem for years as has the USA and now very recently Aus. I think Randy Oliver's results thus far on developing a varroa resistant bee stands at 0.02% success rate. Didn't Richard Noel buy a supposedly a Varroa resistant queen from someone? He was going to report back in detail but I never saw his results on the Tube but I dont think he was impressed but I could be wrong. Bees not showing signs of a varroa infestation or beeks claiming they haven't got varroa is a country mile away from a varroa resistant strain.

There are two not insignificant hurdles as I see it to ever being free from varroa and that's beeks who prefer treatment free status and those that treat incorrectly thus creating or risk creating high resistance being developed by the varroa. As we are beginning to see sadly..

I also think it was Randy in one of his videos marked a load of drones to scientifically study "drifting" and they found marked drones 3 miles away.

 

[Beekeeperscottish]

Rusty Burlew, on the Honey Bee Suite blog has this to say,
"Lots of folks insist that mites cannot possibly become resistant to oxalic acid. Well, maybe. But just because it hasn’t happened yet, doesn’t mean it won’t. I put odds on the mites"
I've previously gained the impression that in US beekeeping, the general attitude to the use of oxalic acid is more relaxed than in the UK. I am wrong; the official approach is appropriately cautious in respect of human health and safety, and in avoiding the potential for mite resistance.
Something that I hadn't thought of before is that Rusty suggests that we should vary the application method regularly.
Until there is a definitive understanding of exactly what the acid is doing to the mites, I think her cautious attitude is well founded.

https://www.honeybeesuite.com/oxali...dz6jGMqJRyE2gfDerErAnvEaJVwu1ZO5vxZQjquf4lOfA

Maybe I am getting the wrong end of the stick with this post but it’s all about varroa becoming resistant to chemicals? How about bees that can survive and thrive without the use of chemicals? Have we not learned anything? Take antibiotics, we are now told to drink plenty of water and paracetamol for a cold not antibiotics as “we” have become immune to antibiotics, mostly due to not finishing a course of tablets or just a general immunity. (Not taking sides or want an argument) Take COVID 19 vaccinated v unvaccinated.

 

[PhilosopherVet]

Resistance is definitely something to be wary of. Like antibiotics, one of the best ways to slow the development of resistance is to ensure when you do treat you treat properly and completely not under-dosing or over-dosing. While antibiotic resistance is the big one in the news, in Vet medicine we are also beginning to recognize and plan for growing resistance in endo and ectoparasites. While the method of Oxalic acid is more dependent on the acid than the oxalate, "Life finds a way" and I think it will be much better to assume resistance will eventually develop.

That being said, I think beekeepers are much more ahead in general on thinking about living with parasites and resistance than most farmers, vets, and pet owners. The best thing is to continue to build resistant bees that can handle Varroa burden and to treat scientifically as needed

 

[mbc]

I see mites after oxalic treatment, not all of then die quickly but I dont think that they're very successful at breeding after exposure to an acidic environment.
Red dear hinds need to be in good condition to breed, maybe something akin is happening.
Will varroa ever get resistant to oxalic acid? Highly unlikely in our lifetimes but never say never with beekeeping.

 

[Anduril]

Considering oxalic acid was first used in Asia and then in Germany in the late 70's against varroa, resistance should have shown itself by now.

 

[user 20297]

Only works if we favour breeding from bees that deal with them better to allow selection to work. Ideally cull colonies that deal with them poorly.

But we usually treat colonies that are dealing with them poorly.

Maybe I am getting the wrong end of the stick with this post but it’s all about varroa becoming resistant to chemicals? How about bees that can survive and thrive without the use of chemicals? Have we not learned anything? Take antibiotics, we are now told to drink plenty of water and paracetamol for a cold not antibiotics as “we” have become immune to antibiotics, mostly due to not finishing a course of tablets or just a general immunity. (Not taking sides or want an argument) Take COVID 19 vaccinated v unvaccinated.

Dangerous territory around here!

 

[Antipodes]

But we usually treat colonies that are dealing with them poorly.

Dangerous territory around here!

This recent recording of Bob is where I heard about our Aussie bees in the USA. Approx. 37 minutes 30 secs.

At 32 minutes he gives some information about his treatment free experiences. Terrific with his time and information.

 

[madasafish]

You've opened a bag of worms there......... Bob Binnie implies that bees are adapting to deal with mites, and that, within decades rather than millennia?

I have mentioned it before.Our Association bought Qs from Colonsay (so never exposed to mites) WIthin 3 months the hives they were in were crawling with huge infestations. Other hives in the same location had no such extreme issues.

SO there is some natural selection which already has happened: see largescale die offs when mites first arrived.

 

[user 20297]

This recent recording of Bob is where I heard about our Aussie bees in the USA. Approx. 37 minutes 30 secs.

At 32 minutes he gives some information about his treatment free experiences. Terrific with his time and information.

That's very interesting stuff coming from Bob Binnie, who, as I'm sure that most people who are familiar with him will know, is a very successful and level-headed (commercial) beekeeper. What he's saying about the collateral damage caused by treatment resulting in unintentional selection in favour of resilient mites has already been very well explained by @Beesnaturally on this forum.

 

[Beekeeperscottish]

But we usually treat colonies that are dealing with them poorly.

Dangerous territory around here!

Then they are the colonies you don’t want at your apiary the other question is how are you 100% sure it’s a varroa problem? I’m all for treating but at what cost? It’s a very touchy subject. Personally if I have a very strong colony, I do a mite count and it’s high I wouldn’t treat at all, they are doing well why do I need to? If I have a failing colony with a low mite count do I treat? So many variables but at the end of the day it’s up to the individual to do what they feel is the correct course of action.

 

[user 20297]

Then they are the colonies you don’t want at your apiary the other question is how are you 100% sure it’s a varroa problem? I’m all for treating but at what cost? It’s a very touchy subject. Personally if I have a very strong colony, I do a mite count and it’s high I wouldn’t treat at all, they are doing well why do I need to? If I have a failing colony with a low mite count do I treat? So many variables but at the end of the day it’s up to the individual to do what they feel is the correct course of action.

Many people would disagree quite vociferously with your approach; it's a "debate" that recurs on this forum and others. But I lean much more towards your view than I do towards the "keep zapping them till their gone" contingent. It's just that it gets wearisome seeing the upset it causes when people with strong views get hooked into this debate.

 

[Anduril]

Then they are the colonies you don’t want at your apiary the other question is how are you 100% sure it’s a varroa problem? I’m all for treating but at what cost? It’s a very touchy subject. Personally if I have a very strong colony, I do a mite count and it’s high I wouldn’t treat at all, they are doing well why do I need to? If I have a failing colony with a low mite count do I treat? So many variables but at the end of the day it’s up to the individual to do what they feel is the correct course of action.

A few years back there was a scientific paper, stating that, by not medicating your bees, the viral load produced, harms our other species of bees because varroa act as a vector for viruses.
This is an area that hasn't been researched enough and it is unclear in which direction the viral load travels. It could be that honeybees are the problem, but it could also be bumblebees. That was why there was a recommendation to medicate.