Bee watch - is the upstairs downstairs entrance the key to making the step towards treatment free beekeeping

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Bees can and will readily propolise and unpropolise these channels in the baffle, thereby regulating their own environment (never seen bees try and do that with the thundering great wind tunnel we give them in a national floor!)

seen it loads of times

Anyway, you'll gather that I think it to be rather an interesting idea.

I refer you to PT Barnum

 

[Ian123]

Loving the usual intransigence, guys. For those brave enough to sink some holes into their brood boxes, and part with (admittedly too much) cash, or make their own variants, it strikes me that the use of intrances is probably vastly preferable to, and more bee-friendly than our 'standard'.

Used in the prescribed way (solid floor, then shallow (no entrance), then deep (with 3 intrances), then supers as required, each with intrances).... and with those intrances pluggable with either solid plugs or vents ... Then, the way I see it:

- Bees are entering the brood area about a third of the way up - as (per Seeley's observations) they prefer in a natural nest
- Bees are able to easily defend these entrances, against both wasp attacks and robbers
- Vermin cannot enter - so no need for e.g. a mouse guard in winter
- Bees can and will readily propolise and unpropolise these channels in the baffle, thereby regulating their own environment (never seen bees try and do that with the thundering great wind tunnel we give them in a national floor!)
- Bees can use the rebate in the wall of the deep box as an impromptu landing board (so no landing board required, if that's your thing)
- Top intrances may be opened during a flow, to allow foragers to enter and hand over their wares where it will be stored, which is more efficient, and prevents traffic across the brood comb
- The solid floor is again similar to what would be found in a natural nest, and - as stated in a previous post - humidity levels in the hive consequently higher and less varroa-friendly
- for the beekeeper, it is really easy to fully close a hive, and/or regulate ventilation
- etc...

Anyway, you'll gather that I think it to be rather an interesting idea.

You'll note I say "interesting", not "good" - only as I (and you) will not be able to judge if it's good until or unless we try it...

... which I am doing this year. I bought some intrances and some seconds boxes in the Thorne sale, and am in the throes of giving it a crack. The one thing I am doing though is using deeps as supers above the brood... thereby giving myself myriad options in relation to vertical splits and other manipulations, and the possibility of constantly cycling the brood each year onto freshly drawn comb.

Anyway...

Owners of Abelo poly hives, and those familiar with the arts of Eastern European beekeeping will recognise that there are already precedents for the use of small entrances throughout the stack, and also e.g. related techniques (none of which I can remember) for mitigating cast swarms.

I know it's the 'standard', and I know that this alone makes it a compelling choice in this increasingly godforsaken country, but I do find it depressing that some intelligent alternatives or adaptations to the BS National design are not given more respect before they are plopped on from a great height by the self-annointed 'great and good'

Diatribe over. Good night

The usual intransigence as you describe is often based on some experience. The fact in some cases there is shall we say some over gilding raises hackles and would lead to questions regarding other perceived benifits.
In answer to your points.
1. Seeley may indeed have found bees entering half way up but is this a benefit? Given he was in a wood and looking at bees in tree cavities it’s probably no surprise. Had he been in other parts of the world and an abundance of other cavities that bees use he may have different results. We don’t know if this is a benefit?
2. Bees can defend all sought of entrances, some are better than others. Some here use ufe some use tunnel types, some restrict a standard entrance. A defensive entrance is not exclusive to this design, perhaps rather the understanding or competence of the beekeeper.
3.Bees with standard entrances flush with floor/bb use the rebate as a landing board, again not exclusive to any product.
4. Bees often and can use propolis on (normal) entrances you may not have seen it but it’s not unusual. Often depends on your race/strain of bee and indeed local plant life.
5. No landing board is required on normal entrances they simply use the side wall!..but we cover that in 3?
6 Top entrances have been around for decades do they provide a benefit? If commercial beeks thought that top entrances provide a % increase in productivity or hive health they’d all be drilling holes in the boxes I’ve had my share over the years of boxes not stacked correctly or knots in boxes falling out and I’d think I’m not alone Is it an advantage?
7. Humidity and varroa understanding is in early stages. Is it exclusive to this type of entrance no! A solid bottom floor with small entrance could possibly provide more humidity than top entrances, humidity rises?
8. Any half competent beekeeper can easily close most/all floors.

So I’m not having a go but trying to give an insight as to why people question claims! When people see products over egged or claims that really aren’t exclusive or ground breaking it rankles.
Many over the years have seen and heard it all before and I’m sure we’ll see it again

 

[user 20297]

As with underfloor entrances, those who have direct experience using this device and technique are best placed to criticise it.
Any takers?

 

[Ian123]

As with underfloor entrances, those who have direct experience using this device and technique are best placed to criticise it.
Any takers?

You may indeed be right….but there’s plenty with experience enough to be aware if claims are exclusive innovative or being gilded!…..

 

[user 20297]

Yep that was my worry as well as the bees would have to drag the dead bees up the side wall then through the small plastic opening on the inside of the hive wall before then doing a 90 degree bend to pass through the big hole in the side of the hive.

Although my bees didn't have the challenge of a 7mm hole through which to drag dead bees, the floor on my hive that had only the trapezoidal hole, halfway up the side as an entrance, managed to keep the floor completely free of debris and dead bees after winter.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Seeley may indeed have found bees entering half way up but is this a benefit? Given he was in a wood and looking at bees in tree cavities it’s probably no surprise. Had he been in other parts of the world and an abundance of other cavities that bees use he may have different results. We don’t know if this is a benefit?

I've had the benefit of observing a few 'wild' colonies over the years, some have had the choice of top and bottom entrances on their accommodation, they all demonstrated a preference for the lower access.
Also, as I use Demarree widely as a form of swarm avoidance and, using my Demarree boards means (especially when the supers build up) they have a choice of a lower underfloor entrance or the upper entrance (which doesn't have a (superfluous in any situation) landing board - the bees always favour the bottom entrance with very few in comparison using the top.

 

[Swarm]

I've had the benefit of observing a few 'wild' colonies over the years, some have had the choice of top and bottom entrances on their accommodation, they all demonstrated a preference for the lower access.
Also, as I use Demarree widely as a form of swarm avoidance and, using my Demarree boards means (especially when the supers build up) they have a choice of a lower underfloor entrance or the upper entrance (which doesn't have a (superfluous in any situation) landing board - the bees always favour the bottom entrance with very few using the top.

Really? The traffic is about the same when I've checked. Take the top box down off the supers and there's a crowd of bees collected on the top super looking for the entrance.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Really?

yes, I've made the point of monitoring it over the years - just out of curiosity. the fact that the upper entrance is just a single bee space high and an inch or so wide just gives the impression of crowding. And as for 'crowds' of bees looking for the missing entrance when it is removed, I'd hardly call them crowds compared to the traffic at the lower entrance

 

[Bazzer]

So here is footage from my treatment free colonies with multiple entrances - entrances also have a back baffle so bees move downwards into the nuc - this provides good protection against wasp attack. I find having entrances on every box very useful for efficient management with the variable weather we have - can make cell builders, splits etc simply by moving boxes and inserting thin poly crown boards

 

[boywonder]

@Ian123 Thanks for the considered response. I accept all your points - which are challenging what I propose - rather than calling it out as sh*te - which it is not. I guess the proof will be in the pudding as @Erichalfbee says. I am a hobbyist, and I now, after 10 years, and having cycled say ~100 colonies through an entire season, feel confident enough in my own understanding to explore alternative approaches to my hobby.

The usual intransigence as you describe is often based on some experience

A: Experience of what I think we will all acknowledge is a sub-standard hive design. I think that's a point I make, in that we, in the UK, live with it in spite of its failings. It's OK. It being the standard, the equipment (and attandant costs) and related management approaches are straightforward to swallow.

If commercial beeks thought that top entrances provide a % increase in productivity or hive health they’d all be drilling holes in the box

A: Commercial beekeepers work at scale, and will work with / around the failings of the local prevailing hive design (be that Algarvian log hives or UK BS Nationals).

What commercial beekeepers do, does not equate necessarily to what is best for the bees; only what it most efficient and cost/time effective for predictable outcomes. That's why I personally don't clip my queens etc ... Different motives and different constraints.

Bees often and can use propolis on (normal) entrances you may not have seen it but it’s not unusual.

A: You and JBM say this happens 'normally'/'not unusually' but I dispute that. I'm not saying that it cannot occasionally happen, and whilst I have had/seen bees which propolise to excess and draw 'curtains' etc.... in 10 years' experience with my own bees, the bees of others and Association bees, never ONCE seen a colony propolise a BS National entrance. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not 'normal'. Bees propolising a manageable/small gap is normal.


Broad church and all that.

 

[Swarm]

yes, I've made the point of monitoring it over the years - just out of curiosity. the fact that the upper entrance is just a single bee space high and an inch or so wide just gives the impression of crowding. And as for 'crowds' of bees looking for the missing entrance when it is removed, I'd hardly call them crowds compared to the traffic at the lower entrance

I think we all observe our colonies. The upper entrances I use are roughly 10mm high and between three to six inches wide, quite similar to some of the lower entrances. Lots of confusion and yes, crowds of bees, just the same when the upper entrance is removed and top box used as a super, it's covered with bees until they work out where to go.

 

[Erichalfbee]

So here is footage from my treatment free colonies with multiple entrances - entrances also have a back baffle so bees move downwards into the nuc

More bees at the bottom entrance than the top.

 

[Ian123]

@Ian123 Thanks for the considered response. I accept all your points - which are challenging what I propose - rather than calling it out as sh*te - which it is not. I guess the proof will be in the pudding as @Erichalfbee says. I am a hobbyist, and I now, after 10 years, and having cycled say ~100 colonies through an entire season, feel confident enough in my own understanding to explore alternative approaches to my hobby.



A: Experience of what I think we will all acknowledge is a sub-standard hive design. I think that's a point I make, in that we, in the UK, live with it in spite of its failings. It's OK. It being the standard, the equipment (and attandant costs) and related management approaches are straightforward to swallow.



A: Commercial beekeepers work at scale, and will work with / around the failings of the local prevailing hive design (be that Algarvian log hives or UK BS Nationals).

What commercial beekeepers do, does not equate necessarily to what is best for the bees; only what it most efficient and cost/time effective for predictable outcomes. That's why I personally don't clip my queens etc ... Different motives and different constraints.



A: You and JBM say this happens 'normally'/'not unusually' but I dispute that. I'm not saying that it cannot occasionally happen, and whilst I have had/seen bees which propolise to excess and draw 'curtains' etc.... in 10 years' experience with my own bees, the bees of others and Association bees, never ONCE seen a colony propolise a BS National entrance. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not 'normal'. Bees propolising a manageable/small gap is normal.


Broad church and all that.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/bees-blocking-hive-entrance-with-propolis.6730/

 

[Gilberdyke John]

@Ian123 Thanks for the considered response. I accept all your points - which are challenging what I propose - rather than calling it out as sh*te - which it is not. I guess the proof will be in the pudding as @Erichalfbee says. I am a hobbyist, and I now, after 10 years, and having cycled say ~100 colonies through an entire season, feel confident enough in my own understanding to explore alternative approaches to my hobby.



A: Experience of what I think we will all acknowledge is a sub-standard hive design. I think that's a point I make, in that we, in the UK, live with it in spite of its failings. It's OK. It being the standard, the equipment (and attandant costs) and related management approaches are straightforward to swallow.



A: Commercial beekeepers work at scale, and will work with / around the failings of the local prevailing hive design (be that Algarvian log hives or UK BS Nationals).

What commercial beekeepers do, does not equate necessarily to what is best for the bees; only what it most efficient and cost/time effective for predictable outcomes. That's why I personally don't clip my queens etc ... Different motives and different constraints.



A: You and JBM say this happens 'normally'/'not unusually' but I dispute that. I'm not saying that it cannot occasionally happen, and whilst I have had/seen bees which propolise to excess and draw 'curtains' etc.... in 10 years' experience with my own bees, the bees of others and Association bees, never ONCE seen a colony propolise a BS National entrance. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not 'normal'. Bees propolising a manageable/small gap is normal.


Broad church and all that.

I've swapped phones since so the image isn't readily to hand but I had a colony which all but closed the entrance slot in an Abelo Mark 1 with the restrictor removed using propolis. Honey yield was similar to other hives which didn't.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

As with underfloor entrances, those who have direct experience using this device and technique are best placed to criticise it.
Any takers?

I tried this system about three years ago. Because it involved changing from a mesh to a solid floor, the bees couldn't cope. I guess it must have been in May. I gave in to their frantic roaring pretty quickly and replaced the mesh floor. If anyone is going to adopt this system, I think the change over would need to be done in late autumn or winter. After the shock of this experience, I just plugged up the holes and went back to the status quo.

Mind you, changing to pseudo solid floors with tight-fitting plywood drawers under the mesh of my UFEs hasn't been a problem at all.

 

[Bazzer]

More bees at the bottom entrance than the top.

Did you do a count over the whole video? I would say all three entrances are about the same but it will vary between nucs depending on what boxes have been combined/split and whether there is a flow on or not.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Did you do a count over the whole video? I would say all three entrances are about the same but it will vary between nucs depending on what boxes have been combined/split and whether there is a flow on or not.

No. I must admit I just glanced at a snip but if you’ve done a count then I’m happy to admit I’m wrong.

 

[JohnRB]

Effectively it's not fundamentally different from copying it with a drill bit, wood and spacers. But in this case you'd just draw it in a CAD package rather than working it out in your head, which shouldn't be too hard given that there are known constraints on some dimensions of the parts and others probably aren't that important (and their designs are quite simple). If you had one to measure from it would be even simpler. After that it's the same as making anything else with a 3d printer.

James

I've made something very similar with my 3d printer - 20 minutes to design in tinkercad (I still struggle with curves) and a hour to print. I've kept the original files with date stamps so no one can accuse me of copying something I shouldn't. I got as far as buying a drill bit, but actual, important, beekeeping got in the way. Might fit them this year just for a bit of fun.

 

[JohnRB]

I've made something very similar with my 3d printer - 20 minutes to design in tinkercad (I still struggle with curves) and a hour to print. I've kept the original files with date stamps so no one can accuse me of copying something I shouldn't. I got as far as buying a drill bit, but actual, important, beekeeping got in the way. Might fit them this year just for a bit of fun.

here's my design in tinkercad - I have the entrance built into the backplate. It pushes through the side of the broodbox from the inside and is secured with a hexagonal nut (with optional teeny tiny landing board) (Obviously for personal use/experiments only)

 

[John Taylor]

I have used intrances from the start of my beekeeping. They are expensive, some would say too expensive, but in my short 4 year experience they work extremely well, no wax moth at all, very very few wasps get in and no robbing as far as I am aware. I do not use the super entrances now as I have not seen a lot of bees using them excepting when there is a big flow on. I will continue to use them on main entrances any new hives I add to my existing 5. I have recommended them to another local hobby beekeeper who was having problems with wax moth and it cleared up after using intrances? They must keep the brood box warmer as draught can’t blow through as with open entrances.