Oh No! Not Matchsticks Again?

[user 20297]

So...wrong, wrong, wrong.

Three "wrongs" don't make a "right".

 

[Sayle]

Three "wrongs" don't make a "right".

But three rights make a left! Kif, we have a conundrum.

 

[oliver90owner]

No, timber roofs do not need ventilation. Is your loft ventilated?

Of course it is! Are you real? You do make some stupid comments!

The heat conducted through a hot roof is negligible compared to the effect of outside air temperature and the normal heat production of the hive.

Yet another ill-considered remark! Do read my post properly. Perhaps you are so parochial that you don’t consider that beekeeping takes place only in your backyard?

So...wrong, wrong, wrong.

I think not. It is you that is wrong, wrong. It would also appear that you do not have any poly ventilated roofs?

 

[madasafish]

You are being wacist...

Burn, Burn , Burn.. and tear down your statue

 

[Sayle]

No, timber roofs do not need ventilation. Is your loft ventilated?

Of course it is! Are you real? You do make some stupid comments!

The heat conducted through a hot roof is negligible compared to the effect of outside air temperature and the normal heat production of the hive.

Yet another ill-considered remark! Do read my post properly. Perhaps you are so parochial that you don’t consider that beekeeping takes place only in your backyard?

So...wrong, wrong, wrong.

I think not. It is you that is wrong, wrong. It would also appear that you do not have any poly ventilated roofs?

Ignoring that you decided to copy paste rather than quote that would notify me of your (frankly funny) response, I'd reply as follows:

If you were to ventilate your loft in the same way as you 'ventilate' a beehive, you've knocked some holes in your roof. I think that no matter your views you would struggle to justify that as a normal choice.

Secondly, I did read your post properly. But your eloquent and detailed reply of "In summer,an air flow over the crown board may help to cool the heat conducted through the roof." failed to reveal that you in fact lived in the tropics of...*checks*...Lincolnshire. Unless your similarly vague (and contradictory, by the by) comment of how all beekeeping takes place in my backyard (I imagine you meant the opposite?) is meant to refer to something other than your local weather. In which case I invite you to explain yourself a little more comprehensibly than the pithy little asides you prefer to communicate in. But if that is in fact what you are referring to, sir, I regret to inform you that the blazing sun of the north of England is not likely to be the deciding factor of the temperature above the crownboard versus the normal air temperature and active heating of the bees.

Unless you make your roof glass to give the bees a little greenhouse? Unlike yourself I'm willing to grant you the basic presumption that what you say isn't stupid because you disagree with me.

Also no, I don't have poly vents. It strikes me as rather counterproductive to undermine the insulative qualities that the material is primarily used for by allowing the heat to escape. I invite you, however, to reply to my entire post rather than just the parts which you think you can make what you seem to think qualifies as some passingly clever rebuttal to.

 

[oliver90owner]

Another ridiculous response! All my beehives are vented at the floor level - the OMF and entrance. The roof if ventilated to allow some movement of air within the roof to clear any moisture that might otherwise cause damp timber and eventual rot . JUST LIKE MY HOUSE ROOF!

All my hives have insulation above the crown board. JUST THE SAME AS THE CEILINGS IN MY HOUSE!

My house was designed and built with roof ventilation at the eaves. I was very careful not to block off that ventilation as the roof has been insulated to a depth of about 300mm minimum.

The rest of your post is of the same standard as that reported on above, so no need to converse with you any further on the matter. You are clearly ‘out of your depth’. I have now (from your postings comments), rightly or wrongly, concluded you are likely a minor.

RAB BSc.

 

[Boston Bees]

I have now (from your postings comments), rightly or wrongly, concluded you are likely a minor.

RAB BSc.

I mean this purely in the spirit of friendly advice, but absolutely no-one puts BSc after their name anymore ..... not on an internet forum anyway. Looks a bit desperate, especially as bachelors degrees are as common as swimming badges these days. Just FYI.

 

[user 20297]

The roof if ventilated to allow some movement of air within the roof to clear any moisture that might otherwise cause damp timber and eventual rot .

I think that most of the forward-thinking beekeepers have completely filled their roofs with insulation or have poly-roofs. Therefore, the necesssity for roof-vents for the dissipation of condensate no longer applies. The problem with having to defend the obvious, with a point such as the one you're correctly making above, is that many beekeepers here have a Pavlovian response to the phrases which refer to, "roof ventilation in beehives", and seem not to read the detail; so their answer is always "Wrong, wrong, wrong", as it probably will also be to this.

Any void above an insulated surface, particularly when that surface has an imperfect seal from a high relative humidity beneath, will always be prone to internal condensation if not passively ventilated to external.

 

[oliver90owner]

no-one puts BSc after their name anymore .

I don’t normally, but I thought it might demonstrate that at least one arguing the point was in the above average part.

 

[plain_hunt]

So I can conclude from all the points raised that if I did want to increase ventilation in my hive, I need to get a battery fan, my Apiary isn’t on the main grid. But do I put it at the top or the bottom of the hive, inside the roof or under the mesh floor, outside the entrance or just inside???
Sorry, couldn’t resist!

 

[ericbeaumont]

Why do they still make vented roofs then?

Solid floors were in universal use in the 40s and vented roofs were specified because designers believed that rising moisture or CO2 had to be removed rather than managed within the hive.

The current wood National hive spec. was laid down to a British Standard in 1945 or 6 and manufacturers stuck to it. Makes sense, because commonality of kit is essential in beekeeping.

Mesh floors became big news in the 90s when it was suggested that a small % of the new pest varroa would fall through the mesh and assist integrated pest management. Truth is that the value of an OMF remains a moot point and it may have been more of a sales blurb to open up a new revenue stream. Plenty of solid floors still made, sold and used.

Result: a 1940s hive design with wasteful upper ventilation sold in combination with a ventilated floor intended to resolve a different problem fifty years later. Outcome: a chimney of heat rising constantly that increased bees' consumption of stores in order to maintain nest temps. and compensate for the loopy ideas of British beekeepers.

All of this went slowly out of the window when poly hives opened up the market in Europe forty years ago. As ever, the UK was unable to grasp the benefits of European ideas and poly hives have only really taken off in the last ten years. Many UK suppliers leapt at the chance to start from scratch and come up with a poly winner (results distinctly variable) but this time different rules of thermal management were understood: no holes in the roof, max. insulation on top.

As JBM said, UK wood hive manufacturers are stuck in the past, but bear in mind also that the main UK wood market is aimed at beginner beekeepers who are naturally unaware of hive ventilation, condensation, thermal regulation and humidity, and don't know to challenge the status quo.

This fog of innocence allows manufacturers to put their feet up and avoid the bother of clubbing together to spend to evolve the BS design; they probably don't even know the value of making changes, and so onward some of us bumble like Victorian vicars with thin wooden hives, holes in crownboards and vents in roofs.

 

[thorn]

You are being wacist...

Burn, Burn , Burn.. and tear down your statue

He is, and it's not funny, it's offensive.

 

[user 20297]

He is, and it's not funny, it's offensive.

Well said.

 

[RichardBeeW]

So they do
They are painted green now

What paint do you use, Dani? I've thought of making roofs out of the same but having visions of my paint peeling off the aluminium has stopped me doing it. My 8" deep wooden roofs are a pain to lift (meant literally). I know about the wooden skewer technique but wonder if something like Gorilla glue would be best for joining the panels. Just used aluminium tape on the corners of this insulation to protect two nucs under one BN roof this winter which worked, opens like a book on one corner, but feels flimsy. Both nucs came through very strong though and have now been moved to their own full sized BBs. Oh, and the 'ventilation' holes in the roof's side 'were' for ventilation (okay, so I'd read about matchsticks too ) but Mr JBM was onto that like a stooping falcon and having read comments here they now have duct tape behind and extra insulation which comes down that deep anyway. Good as finger holds for lifting the massive weight though but my later roofs don't have them.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What paint do you use, Dani? I've thought of making roofs out of the same but having visions of my paint peeling off the aluminium has stopped me doing it. My 8" deep wooden roofs are a pain to lift (meant literally). I know about the wooden skewer technique but wonder if something like Gorilla glue would be best for joining the panels. Just used aluminium tape on the corners of this insulation to protect two nucs under one BN roof this winter which worked, opens like a book on one corner, but feels flimsy. Both nucs came through very strong though and have now been moved to their own full sized BBs. Oh, and the 'ventilation' holes in the roof's side 'were' for ventilation (okay, so I'd read about matchsticks too ) but Mr JBM was onto that like a stooping falcon and having read comments here they now have duct tape behind and extra insulation which comes down that deep anyway. Good as finger holds for lifting the massive weight though but my later roofs don't have them. View attachment 25278

Painted with gloss which lasted well, some painted with masonry paint which didn’t and the tape lifted in places letting water in.
I’ve stripped one entirely which was a pain and plan to paint it with garage door paint or floor paint.
Can you get similar insulation without the foil, I wonder? Then you could simply tape the joins after glueing and paint it.?

 

[madasafish]

Painted with gloss which lasted well, some painted with masonry paint which didn’t and the tape lifted in places letting water in.
I’ve stripped one entirely which was a pain and plan to paint it with garage door paint or floor paint.
Can you get similar insulation without the foil, I wonder? Then you could simply tape the joins after glueing and paint it.?

Just had to do the same.
I covered the bare (no aluminium) roof with a layer of white gloss, then a layer of fiberglass resin (to deter crows/magpies/whatever) from taking bites out, and then painted it with Cuprinol Willow three coats (Wilkos had offer £8 per 1 liter)
Looks tolerable now.
Masonry paint cracks and splits and peels. PIA.

 

[RichardBeeW]

Painted with gloss which lasted well, some painted with masonry paint which didn’t and the tape lifted in places letting water in.
I’ve stripped one entirely which was a pain and plan to paint it with garage door paint or floor paint.
Can you get similar insulation without the foil, I wonder? Then you could simply tape the joins after glueing and paint it.?

Thanks, Dani. Hadn't thought of garage door paint - I suppose I haven't really had a garage since 1981 (I did have one from 1981 to 1992 but I'd converted it into a pigsty without a door which worked well - very happy pigs) but of course many garage doors are aluminium so it should work. Failing that good old gloss sounds like a way to go - and Gorilla glue I'm guessing. Thanks again. Thanks also @madasafish all useful.

 

[madasafish]

Thanks, Dani. Hadn't thought of garage door paint - I suppose I haven't really had a garage since 1981 (I did have one from 1981 to 1992 but I'd converted it into a pigsty without a door which worked well - very happy pigs) but of course many garage doors are aluminium so it should work. Failing that good old gloss sounds like a way to go - and Gorilla glue I'm guessing. Thanks again. Thanks also @madasafish all useful.

Hammerite Garage Door Paint is VERY strong. (It is also thick and best applied in warm weather or it takes 36 hours to dry (don't ask!). My Paradise Honey Hive was painted in it in 2015. Still looks smart and fresh.

It is expensive But it is TOUGH. (bonds to polystyrene.).

 

[oliver90owner]

Result: a 1940s hive design with wasteful upper ventilation sold in combination with a ventilated floor intended to resolve a different problem fifty years later. Outcome: a chimney of heat rising constantly that increased bees' consumption of stores in order to maintain nest temps. and compensate for the loopy ideas of British beekeepers.

It would appear to me that part of the forum members do not know or understand that roof ventilation has nothing to do with hive ventilation - at least it should not. Nowt more to add, really., as it is pointless to those that don’t know - and don’t want to know.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I mean this purely in the spirit of friendly advice, but absolutely no-one puts BSc after their name anymore ..... not on an internet forum anyway. Looks a bit desperate, especially as bachelors degrees are as common as swimming badges these days. Just FYI.

I suspect RAB obtained his degree before the general depression of standards apparent today. Now hands up those holding a degree in punk rock or having offendatrons certificates