Oh No! Not Matchsticks Again?

[ericbeaumont]

Or perhaps, lets do what the bees have done for 40 million years brigade.

Fact is that bees do not have the freedom to evaluate either plain sugar or honey (they just hoof up whatever is on offer) yet the 40m-years brigade conclude that honey is best because it's what bees have always produced. As bees operate a cost/benefit analysis on other hive jobs, it would be interesting to read their final report on the two winter fuels.

Caveat: as brooding in these warmer winters continues for much of the time, pollen and some honey is essential. Naturally, this would be present as no beekeeper would strip out all the honey in a hive, no matter the stern opinion of well-meaning but mis-informed planet-savers.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Plainly a lot of people do exactly as you describe....and in the past ourselves. Plainly in a huge outfit dedicated boxes are an impossible task...you would need millions in surplus investment and a shed the size of a football field to hold the segregated stacks for every colony. In our case we have the business compartmentalised so they get boxes from within their unit, not from anywhere in the business.

However.......the moving of honey IS a risk...as is using combs that have been on other hives.......even if in many cases a minor and calculated one. It is a bigger risk than matchsticks under the cover boards.

But this is just extra info....the bit I am actually following up on is the bit I quote above.

There is actually quite extensive research showing that honey is actually close to being the worst of the commonly available foods for bees..even the colony's own honey. In winter the bees do best on pure energy food...all the extras are not required. Fondant has none of these extras and the bees can eat it without any indigestibles or other waste products filling the gut.

Sounds counterintuitive and contradicts a lot of traditionalist teaching but really..in winter all they need is the 'heating on'...so other contents of natural stores are just coincidental inclusions of little benefit.

So you should all save your money in winter that a lot are spending on fancy protein enhanced products ... they will do better on plain fondant..and less risk of them needing to fly early to defecate....and the associated risks from that if we get a prolonged cold spell.

So you should all save your money in winter that a lot are spending on fancy protein enhanced products ... they will do better on plain fondant..and less risk of them needing to fly early to defecate....and the associated risks from that if we get a prolonged cold spell.
Would you also say then ITLD that more fondant stores than honey would contribute to a colony not getting distentry quite as easy?
Being as honey has more protein in it than fondant?

 

[fizzle]

When will people realise.. the 'bottom board' as they call it is an INSPECTION board.. just that. pop in, leave 3 days, inspect and remove!!

Sorry Heather, I don't fully agree with this.

Removing the bottom/inspection board will make it colder.

EDIT: Probably not the best analogy, sorry.

 

[pargyle]

Sorry Heather, I don't fully agree with this.

Removing the bottom/inspection board will make it colder.

EDIT: Probably not the best analogy, sorry.

No it desn;t make it colder ... warn air rises, cold air falls ... I think this particular bit of phyics was discovered centuries ago .. you are flying in the face of fact. You will be telling us the world is flat next ...

 

[Swarm]

Isn't it?

 

[Curly green finger's]

Isn't it?

It's curved when you look down from up here like SWMBO,
And not like an owl glass either.

 

[Boston Bees]

Removing the bottom/inspection board will make it colder

What's more dangerous to bees in winter, cold or moisture?

 

[Erichalfbee]

You will be telling us the world is flat next ...

Mine is at the moment

 

[Into the lions den]

What's more dangerous to bees in winter, cold or moisture?

Excessive moisture........they need some however. Bees can winter ok with months of sub zero temps so cold on its own is not an issue unless excessively protracted.

However..you only gave two choices.

The most dangerous thing of all is the beekeeper.

 

[Boston Bees]

Excessive moisture........they need some. Bees can winter ok with months of msub zero temps.

However..you only gave two choices.

The most dangerous thing of all is the beekeeper.

Yes, sadly it does often seem like that, but I was trying to stay on topic to help the original poster.

I think there is no danger of the bees in this situation having no moisture at all. Glad you agree with me on the temperature

 

[Into the lions den]

So you should all save your money in winter that a lot are spending on fancy protein enhanced products ... they will do better on plain fondant..and less risk of them needing to fly early to defecate....and the associated risks from that if we get a prolonged cold spell.
Would you also say then ITLD that more fondant stores than honey would contribute to a colony not getting distentry quite as easy?
Being as honey has more protein in it than fondant?

Depends on the honey. A clean light honey with few impurities is not a problem worth anyone concerning themselves about...but heather honey with up to 10 times the protein of normal blossom honeys and honeydews with a significant proportion of indigestibles in it need bees with pretty tough guts to use properly, and removing all that and replacing with syrup into the combs if early enough or fondant (in sizeable block (to minimise number of disturbances) are then preferable.

You will know already that we have a distinct preference for autumn comb replacement to get the best combs...this function combines well with reducing the amount of *potentially* dysentery inducing stores...results in lots of newly drawn foundation with perfectly clean stores for winter. Since moving over to that system around 20 years ago we rarely see a 'staining' colony.

All subject to one proviso.......ivy honey...we have no experience of bees wintering on ivy honey in our outfit...so where that is the normal any advice I give has to be viewed as partially valid as you meet a circumstance I never do.

 

[Into the lions den]

Yes, sadly it does often seem like that, but I was trying to stay on topic to help the original poster.

I think there is no danger of the bees in this situation having no moisture at all. Glad you agree with me on the temperature

They need some to reconstitute the stores...just a little...but not none. Hence I said excessive...like the wood of the hive wet inside.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I wish that were true. UK builders weirdly like all the lofts to be "properly ventilated" so even our new homes are about as efficient as German homes from the 1970s. As soon as I can afford it I'm getting a Passivhaus built. Airtight with controlled ventilation, bugger all cost to heat/cool, and no draughts.

Some great effort has gone into creating "warm roof" loft structures. One simple way being under drawing the rafters with insulation board, allowing air to circulate between the insulation and the sarking and tiles. Other methods are available

 

[fizzle]

No it desn;t make it colder ... warn air rises, cold air falls ... I think this particular bit of phyics was discovered centuries ago .. you are flying in the face of fact. You will be telling us the world is flat next ...

Pargyle. There is also a thing called cold bridging. Your statement holds true if its perfectly calm with little moisture. In windy conditions the wind will whip across the bottom of the hive and draw heat out, surely?

I believe if you climb to the top of Everest and look out, the earth is not flat and it's not warm either, even if heat does rise

 

[Boston Bees]

In windy conditions the wind will whip across the bottom of the hive and draw heat out, surely?

Yes, but also excess moisture?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I believe if you climb to the top of Everest and look out, the earth is not flat and it's not warm either, even if heat does rise

That's because there are holes in the sky

 

[pargyle]

That's because there are holes in the sky

I'm beginning to think I've fallen through a hole in the space/time continuum...

 

[madasafish]

No it desn;t make it colder ... warn air rises, cold air falls ... I think this particular bit of phyics was discovered centuries ago .. you are flying in the face of fact. You will be telling us the world is flat next ...

Ah BUT:

Warm air disturbed by wind turbulence going in through the entrance and exiting via the mesh floor - or vice versa - WILL drag out some warm air with it. Been there. My bees with inspection boards in overwinter better than OMFs with none. But my hives are on stands 20-30cms off the ground and in an exposed position (North winds mainly. And lots of frosts. -2C as I write at 12.35pm..)

Gusty swirly winds make things worse.

The space time continuum is alive and unbroken in Northern Staffordshire. (I write as a qualified physicist .. the fact is was over 50 years ago and I have forgotten most is irrelevant!)

 

[Murox]

I'm beginning to think I've fallen through a hole in the space/time continuum...

No worries - its a möbius strip really!

 

[user 6228]

No it desn;t make it colder ... warn air rises, cold air falls ... I think this particular bit of phyics was discovered centuries ago .. you are flying in the face of fact. You will be telling us the world is flat next ...

yes it does make it colder at least from radiative losses. If the wire and the ground below are at outside temperature you are losing around 3W. Heat loss =F.Area.Sigma(T1^4-T0^4).
F is the factor based on how much the bees is visible to the cold surface. The area is area of the bees exposed. T1 is the temperature of the exposed bees, T0 is the colder surface ( the wire mesh and the ground below). Sigma is the Stephann-Boltzman constant.
Then you get air flow through the mesh caused by turbulences which can occur at even low external wind velocities less than 1mph . Did I ever mention its complicated?