Of relevance to everyone

[Erichalfbee]

You must be unfamiliar with Dr Ramseys work.
A brood break forces all the adult varroa to become "phoretic" (which we now know they are not - they are parasitic throughout their life). They feed on the fat bodies of the workers (nurse bees) who are then unable to produce the brood food in their hypopharyngeal glands and regenerate the colony. See https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=698790&postcount=34

Hunajavelho is right to say they live longer by not feeding larvae....by maintaining the fat bodies

The penny has dropped. Thank you B+

 

[Erichalfbee]

And as the varroa continue to feed being unable to move into cells about to be capped the viruses multiply. Then you dose them with oxalic and the bees have to handle the effect of the acid and the viral load.

I'm liking the idea of trapping brood combs over complete removal of brood.

But surely if you are using oxalic it’s either best during a brood break ( one hit) or is it better WITH brood, vape three or four times and hit the phoretic/ parasitic varroa before they do much feeding.

 

[B+.]

But surely if you are using oxalic it’s either best during a brood break ( one hit) or is it better WITH brood, vape three or four times and hit the phoretic/ parasitic varroa before they do much feeding.

You can't call them "phoretic" anymore Dani ;-)

I think Dr Ramseys work highlights the need to maintain a low varroa load, ideally by having bees that keep their numbers low themselves, or, by some form of treatment if you have to.....but, we all knew that, right?!

 

[gmonag]

..here is Dr Samuel Ramsey talking about his Phd work on varroa feeding habits

Great presentation. Thanks for the link.

 

[Millet]

But surely if you are using oxalic it’s either best during a brood break ( one hit) or is it better WITH brood, vape three or four times and hit the phoretic/ parasitic varroa before they do much feeding.

Some folk go over board and read until it wastes there life.. i know to treat for Varroa..and it is very simple as you know..and it does not waste my life trying to find a alternative treatment..

 

[B+.]

Some folk go over board and read until it wastes there life.. i know to treat for Varroa..and it is very simple as you know..and it does not waste my life trying to find a alternative treatment..

On the contrary Millet, reading is never a waste. My only regret is that I am sometimes hampered in my studies by not having enough of a scientific background.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Some folk go over board and read until it wastes there life.. i know to treat for Varroa..and it is very simple as you know..and it does not waste my life trying to find a alternative treatment..

We are not discussing treatment but some science behind it. For a lot of people it’s extremely interesting. Aren’t you interested in the world around you and how it works? Learning is never a waste of life

 

[Erichalfbee]

reading is never a waste. My only regret is that I am sometimes hampered in my studies by not having enough of a scientific background.

I find being hampered by time is frustrating too
I have a friend who at 89 years old is still sticking her nose into everything she can find and publishing her findings so there is still hope

 

[B+.]

I find being hampered by time is frustrating too
I have a friend who at 89 years old is still sticking her nose into everything she can find and publishing her findings so there is still hope

OK. Maybe everyone doesn't have the time/inclination to read and learn. So, here's the short version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyfyj-2O47Q ). Surely, everyone can spare 3 minutes to watch a video that might just change the way they view varroa?

 

[For want of a better word]

OK... so Varroa feeds on the Honey bee's fat bodies and not the haemolymph ( Bee's blood)

The only non synthetic substance that we have and can effectively use to combat Varroa seems to be oxalic acid... and even that has been hijacked and licenced as a product to make profits for a pharm company ( in the UK)

"hygenic bees" seems to be a dead ally that some are stuck in....

So where do we go?

 

[B+.]

OK... so Varroa feeds on the Honey bee's fat bodies and not the haemolymph ( Bee's blood)

The only non synthetic substance that we have and can effectively use to combat Varroa seems to be oxalic acid... and even that has been hijacked and licenced as a product to make profits for a pharm company ( in the UK)

"hygenic bees" seems to be a dead ally that some are stuck in....

So where do we go?

The important point is that varroa are not phoretic. They are parasitic on adult bees as well as pupae....but the mechanism is clearer (and, perhaps, a new way of defeating them may come out of it).
I certainly think this puts the "nail in the coffin" of "brood breaks". Even if you use them in combination with a treatment such as OA, the nurse bees will still be compromised. IMHO, if varroa is attacking the bee throughout the year, we need a bee that is able to defend itself all through the year. Occasional treatments, however good they may be, won't cut it.

 

[For want of a better word]

Attempting to look at Varroa from the "ordinary beekeepers" perspective.

The books all describe Varroa is a destructive parasite... and some state that the mite feeds on the bees haemolymph... clearly this is now proven to be incorrect, as research has proved that Varroa feed on the bees fat body.

I attended a lecture given some five or so years back by the American Biologist and beekeeper Randy Oliver... his take on Varroa was to keep numbers low by attacking the Varroa when it was in its "Phoretic state" by using OA ( he may have been using thymol based controll as well)
I took "Phoretic state" as being at a time Varroa were running around looking for a cell to go into to procreat... and where ( in the sealed cell) they could not be affected by OA.

I have followed this practice of keeping Varroa numbers low ( even resorting to rhubarb leaves!)and have not really paid too much attention of trying to treat in the mid winter brood break ( if it happens?)

Fantastic if science can provide an answer to the Varroa problem, as I am sure Varroa is the flea upon the rat ( of imported bees) that is capable of spreading virus ( and we do not need something novel virus wise to wipe out all of our beloved little honey producing charges... do we?)

Chons da

 

[B+.]

Attempting to look at Varroa from the "ordinary beekeepers" perspective.

The books all describe Varroa is a destructive parasite... and some state that the mite feeds on the bees haemolymph... clearly this is now proven to be incorrect, as research has proved that Varroa feed on the bees fat body.

I attended a lecture given some five or so years back by the American Biologist and beekeeper Randy Oliver... his take on Varroa was to keep numbers low by attacking the Varroa when it was in its "Phoretic state" by using OA ( he may have been using thymol based controll as well)
I took "Phoretic state" as being at a time Varroa were running around looking for a cell to go into to procreat... and where ( in the sealed cell) they could not be affected by OA.

I have followed this practice of keeping Varroa numbers low ( even resorting to rhubarb leaves!)and have not really paid too much attention of trying to treat in the mid winter brood break ( if it happens?)

Fantastic if science can provide an answer to the Varroa problem, as I am sure Varroa is the flea upon the rat ( of imported bees) that is capable of spreading virus ( and we do not need something novel virus wise to wipe out all of our beloved little honey producing charges... do we?)

Chons da

Lets keep the importation question out of it. Otherwise, this thread will most-likely go the same way others have gone before.
Clearly, if OA is effective and you have nothing else, you are going to use OA. However, as Dr Buchler said, there is a host of other benign life in the hive that you may also kill.

 

[Murox]

OK... so Varroa feeds on the Honey bee's fat bodies and not the haemolymph ( Bee's blood)

The only non synthetic substance that we have and can effectively use to combat Varroa seems to be oxalic acid... and even that has been hijacked and licenced as a product to make profits for a pharm company ( in the UK)

"hygenic bees" seems to be a dead ally that some are stuck in....

So where do we go?

Until we know better and understand more - "follow the science" - as has been said endlessly- keep levels of varroa as low as possible, probably by employing multiple controls to try and avoid creating resistance.??

 

[gmonag]

Clearly, doing nothing is not an option at the moment, so we must treat as best we can. But if this research can find a way to kill the mites when it feeds on the bees, then we have a win!

Now, about Tropilaelaps...

 

[B+.]

Clearly, doing nothing is not an option at the moment, so we must treat as best we can. But if this research can find a way to kill the mites when it feeds on the bees, then we have a win!

Now, about Tropilaelaps...

Do you REALLY want to go there?

Here's a presentation from the same researcher (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p34t9JKadqI )

 

[Parsonage Bees]

But surely if you are using oxalic it’s either best during a brood break ( one hit) or is it better WITH brood, vape three or four times and hit the phoretic/ parasitic varroa before they do much feeding.

Yes true. If you are caging the queen in one of those Italian cages you could do your first OAV same day (day 0). Knock down all? the phoretic mites.
Leave it to day 10/11 all worker and drone capped. OAV again.
After everything has emerged, day 24/25, OAV again. Release the queen.
Would reduce the mite damage outside the cell.

If you do one OAV once there is no brood, day 24/25, after day 9/10 the mites have had no open cells to move into and have to feed on the adult bees for the rest of the time. Which would be worse.

This is difficult to get your head around. I got half way through this and thought " But . . .. "

 

[Monbees]

OK. Maybe everyone doesn't have the time/inclination to read and learn. So, here's the short version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyfyj-2O47Q ). Surely, everyone can spare 3 minutes to watch a video that might just change the way they view varroa?

I watched the full version and was mesmerized. Thank you v much for sharing. For anyone interested in bees, not just honey/money it's vital to understand what's going on with varroa, not to just say 'whatever varroa is feeding on we have a chemical to deal with it', and not to look further.
It would be interesting to know if similar research has been done on apIs cerana to see if their fat bodies have adapted in some way to varroa.

 

[mbc]

The important point is that varroa are not phoretic. They are parasitic on adult bees as well as pupae....but the mechanism is clearer (and, perhaps, a new way of defeating them may come out of it).
I certainly think this puts the "nail in the coffin" of "brood breaks". Even if you use them in combination with a treatment such as OA, the nurse bees will still be compromised. IMHO, if varroa is attacking the bee throughout the year, we need a bee that is able to defend itself all through the year. Occasional treatments, however good they may be, won't cut it.

Not sure I follow your logic, every population that's developed natural resistance to varroa has at least partly done so with swarming, aka brood breaks. We know longer winters with longer brood breaks also adversely affect varroa (I can't remember the paper but I'm sure I've read that) so even if the 'phoretic' varroa has munched the fat reserves of its host bee it seems the brood break is more damaging to the varroa population in a colony than to the bees.

 

[B+.]

I watched the full version and was mesmerized. Thank you v much for sharing. For anyone interested in bees, not just honey/money it's vital to understand what's going on with varroa, not to just say 'whatever varroa is feeding on we have a chemical to deal with it', and not to look further.
It would be interesting to know if similar research has been done on apIs cerana to see if their fat bodies have adapted in some way to varroa.

It would be nice to see that done as confirmation but Ramsey et al was only published in January 2019 so it may be a while before it's done. As Dr Ramsey explained it, varroa is quite well adapted to feeding on fat bodies so it would be a reasonable assumption that this is how they have always fed.