Man made v natural breeding and selection

[Fusion_power]

With something as well documented as flower preference, I'm surprised several of you have not yet posted a link to supporting research. Finman, in this area, it is common for bees to have 3 to 4 different nectar sources available at a given time during the spring flow. If there is only one plant blooming, you are correct that just about any bee will forage on that source. But when there are several different floral sources available, different strains of bees prefer one vs the other. The selection criteria for an "alfalfa" bee was simply to breed from the colonies that foraged on alfalfa when they had other choices such as clover. After a few generations, most of the breeding line foraged on alfalfa in preference to anything else. You can find this in The Hive and The Honeybee. It is not arcane knowledge.

 

[Finman]

Not for the first time, I'm confused.

I don't see how your explanation could give rise to identifiable groups with clear physical differences -- wing morphology appears to be a common

What am I missing here?

James

I do not know, how much you understand or know genetics. I have studied genetics and biology in the university 55 years ago.

To speak about wing morfology makes no sense. Honey bee DNA was mapped 20 years ago, and it put honeybees' evolution upside down. But still British beekeepers believe, that black bee has borned in shallow valleys after Ice Age. Beekeepers should know that bees cannot live on European tundra, even if they are hardy.

Spanish beekeepers believe that their black bees are too stayed in shallow valleys along Ige Age 100 000 years. How ever ribosome DNA tells, that South African scutellatas are same origin as Spanish bees.

I do not know what you are missing. That I know, that you will not get it from this forum.

 

[Finman]

With something as well documented as flower preference, I'm surprised several of you have not yet posted a link to supporting research. Finman, in this area, it is common for bees to have 3 to 4 different nectar sources available at a given time during the spring flow.

I do not need documentation. When I look landing board , I see what pollen they bring into the hive. If one hive bring more some pollen than another I cannot see any reason to make a research from that thing.

To me it is important to know, in what flowers bees forage, because I carry my bees on outer pastures every year. " Official" information tells for example, that I could put 6 hives onto field bean fields. But I see with my own eyes that there are zero bees in the bean bean field flowers. And no bumbblebee holes in flower tubes.

I have had tens of different strains of Italian bees during 50 years. How heck I know that they are strains? Am I interested about the fact that each strain visit in different flowers. - No, I am not. When we get a good flow, bees can select the flowers. I can see it with my own eyes. Do I need references to that?

I have seen more than enough nonsense writings about bees foraging. How they bring nectar from distance of 10 kilometres.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

With something as well documented as flower preference, I'm surprised several of you have not yet posted a link to supporting research

Why don't you then? as you claim to have the knowledge at your fingertips

 

[JamezF]

To speak about wing morfology makes no sense.

I'm just paraphrasing part of Mark Winston's "The Biology of the Honey Bee", in which he says (of how honey bee races are identified):

"Scientists tend to use morphometric measurements of such characteristics as wing veins, mouthpart and antenna length, and the size of certain body parts"

and references a number of research papers from which he is drawing his information.

As far as I recall he also writes that each bee race has a distinct genotype, but I can't find that in a quick scan through the book right now.

James

 

[Finman]

I'm just paraphrasing part of Mark Winston's "The Biology of the Honey Bee", in which he says (of how honey bee races are identified):

"Scientists tend to use morphometric measurements of such characteristics as wing veins, mouthpart and antenna length, and the size of certain body parts"

James

If you read caracterization of different races, they are described on different way. The most important features are, how good they are in honey production and how easy they are to nurse, disease resistancy and so on.

I have so much experience about different races, that wing morfometry is not important to beekeepers. You can measure wing veins, but it has no meaning in beekeeping practice, why you keep different races.

If you read today about races in different countries, researchers tell, that DNA shows for example in Russia, that black bee has 30% genes from other races.
In Ukraine second biggest country in Europe, they have many kind of crossings. In north parts of country basic bee is black bee, then to south it comes Carniolan, and in south Carpatian bees.

If you read about bee DNA studies on Vladivostock region in east Siberia, the race tells about migrative beekeeping. Mite resistant Russian bee of USA is from the Region of Vladivostok. It was told that Russian bee has a genome of Caucasian bees, but the new research tells that tegion has many kind of genepools, and they all are crossings.

You may read about venation of Romanian bees, how it has changed in last 40 years.

But venation studies tells about nothing about evolution of honeybee compared to DNA studies.

You may compare to humans Rhesus factor, how it resolve the mystery, who is the father of this baby. Nowadays it is done with DNA. In old days in Finland the father was such, which can keep the baby alive.

But the DNA research is very expencive. Every boy can measure veins, and it costs nothing. There are rare bee races in Europe, which DNA relationship has not been determinened yet.

 

[Finman]

The book, the biology if honeybee was printed 1991.

DNA mapping of honeybee was ready about 2005. Project started 2002.

As you know, every village in England, In Wales and In Ireland want to have their black bee subspecies. That is the Level of beekeeping genetics in the British isles.
In Ireland breeding's first job is to breed correct venation to their bees. Not to mention Blenheim.

Amen to that.

 

[JamezF]

If you read caracterization of different races, they are described on different way. The most important features are, how good they are in honey production and how easy they are to nurse, disease resistancy and so on.

I have so much experience about different races, that wing morfometry is not important to beekeepers. You can measure wing veins, but it has no meaning in beekeeping practice, why you keep different races.

So it's beekeepers who decide what the races of bees are, not scientists?

James

 

[Finman]

So it's beekeepers who decide what the races of bees are, not scientists?

James

Nowadays it is scientists, who can say, what the bees are. It can be seen only from DNA.
To an ordinary beekeeper it means nothing, how many races exist in Europe or in Africa. And he has no possibility to travel around the world calculating veins.

Forget those wing veins. You do not need them. The bee needs.

I trust only on university reasearching. Beekeeper can write what ever they get into their head. Natural beekeeperd are worst, when their imagination takes a gallop.

But from TV heritage programs we have learned, that even science is not right.

Two identical twins sent to 5 heritage company their DNA. Then they got many kind of answers. But we know too, that these heritage results have given amazing corect answers around the world.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I do not know, how much you understand or know genetics. I have studied genetics and biology in the university 55 years ago.

To speak about wing morfology makes no sense. Honey bee DNA was mapped 20 years ago, and it put honeybees' evolution upside down. But still British beekeepers believe, that black bee has borned in shallow valleys after Ice Age. Beekeepers should know that bees cannot live on European tundra, even if they are hardy.

Spanish beekeepers believe that their black bees are too stayed in shallow valleys along Ige Age 100 000 years. How ever ribosome DNA tells, that South African scutellatas are same origin as Spanish bees.

I do not know what you are missing. That I know, that you will not get it from this forum.

It's possible familiarity with evolutionary theory would supply a better understanding of the machinery of natural selection and genetic husbandry.
Have a look at this abstract and see what you take away in respect of application to beekeeping:
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/epdf/10.1086/393499

 

[Finman]

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/epdf/10.1086/393499

And what that has to do with bee husbandry?

You should trust that natural selection takes its job on British Isles by itself. Over 90% out of their beekeepers are 2 hive owners, and they cannot fight against natural selection. They do not need any theories, what will happen in the future. The whole England is full of pure Blenheim bees.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Such fairypicture. A theory without any facts.

Feral population's maximum age is 2 years.
New genepools came from escaped swarms.

You simply have no data, nor experience to support that claim. Those of us who live in areas populated by long-lasting ferals and who keep flourishing bees have direct personal experience that flatly contradicts you.

The feral genepools are, here, yes, hugely mixed and probably dominated by beekeepers bees. Yet through natural selection they have attained a measure of resistance that allows them to flourish. That is _to be anticipated_. It is quite simply normal co-evolution playing out.

From such bees by simple normal husbandry methods stocks that maintain that resistance can be maintained and improved.

"Naysayers
The beekeeping community does not lack for critics, skeptics, and naysayers (see Letters to the Editor). Their negativity was realistically well responded to by Danka, Rinderer, Spivak and Kefuss [[19]]:

Honey bee strains that are resistant to varroa are a valuable resource that [many] beekeepers are [already] using successfully. Although these bees have not completely solved the problem, we are in fact moving toward the ideal of sustainable varroa control.

Practical point: we don’t need 100% bulletproof bees to make beekeeping much easier. Although our eventual goal is to have bees that need zero mite management, in the interim, running strains that simply reduce the need for treatment would be a big plus. Bees that exhibit only a moderate degree of mite resistance can allow beekeepers to dispense with the comb-contaminating synthetic miticides altogether.

I am wide open to constructive suggestions, as the transition to successful treatment-free beekeeping is going to take a lot of people working together. As explained by soccer legend Pele:

Success is no accident. It is hard work, perseverance, learning, studying, sacrifice and most of all, love of what you are doing or learning to do.

I’m not saying that it’s gonna be easy—but I am saying that it will be worth the effort. "

https://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-varroa-problem-part-6a/

 

[Beesnaturally]

And what that has to do with bee husbandry?

You should trust that natural selection takes its job on British Isles by itself. Over 90% out of their beekeepers are 2 hive owners....

Sorry, that doesn't make any sense.

and they cannot fight against natural selection. They do not need any theories, what will happen in the future. The whole England is full of pure Blenheim bees.

This is simply incoherent. I imagine in place of argument you are trying to be funny.

You really need to read the literature. In the case of the British Isles, having some familiarity with the honeybee landscape would also be a great help.

 

[Mint Bee]

You simply have no data, nor experience to support that claim. Those of us who live in areas populated by long-lasting ferals and who keep flourishing bees have direct personal experience that flatly contradicts you.

bit rich coming from you isn't it? still waiting for data from you to support your position from earlier in the thread

But of course I can't prove that I've never treated them. In that sense its not a scientific study, merely an anecdote.

And as mentioned earlier you cant possibly know you have long lasting feral as a continuous occupation unless they are monitored 24/7/365. My experience of local feral colonies I've observed (6) is that most are not continuously occupied, but replenished with swarms, purely as judged by activity (or lack of) during the year.
last season i saw a large swarm overwhelm and occupy a weak nuc that was to be shook out. why couldn't that happen with you 'continuous ferals' as well?

 

[madasafish]

No-one - and I repeat it - NO-ONE can generalise about feral bees without a detailed study where colonies are monitored regularly.

Anyone who does has no understanding of the phrase "control testing" where some colonies are included - within very detailed constraints - and used as a comparison.

This is a basis of all drug testing. And testing on animals. And humans.

I refuse to take ANYONE seriously who draws conclusions without such controls.

(and if they don't use them, then they are basically ignoring proven scientific methods.)

It is all scientific illiteracy and not worth reading.

 

[Mint Bee]

Ah, but Mad, its far easier to claim to be new the new Messiah and request faith from you followers

 

[Finman]

You simply have no data, nor experience to support that claim.

After 60 years beekeeping you are able to say, that I have no experience. From where you got that "data".

Evidence data came from Scotland few years ago, when a researcher followed feral hives. No colony survived 3 winters.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You simply have no data, nor experience to support that claim.

Pot/Kettle colour check?

 

[Finman]

I have fighted 20 years in internet with natural beekeepers. I have lost every battle.

Natural beekeepers use such data, which supports their religion.

But that suits to Finnish people. Finland have had 58 battle with Russians, but lost them all.

 

[Finman]

Pot/Kettle colour check?

Evidences please!