Man made v natural breeding and selection

[jenkinsbrynmair]

they made very dark honey from the type flowers they preferred

Not our experience over here, I've had honey ranging from so light it's almost clear to a nice medium colour and some (but not often) bordering on the lighter side of dark.

 

[Finman]

I didn't know about the different coloured honey, but recall something about colour of wax produced between different sub-species.

The colour of wax becomes from small poo droplets in brood cells. Beforen the larva starts to make pupasilk, it makes its gut empty. The more aged the combs, the more it has poo in cells. So the wax get its yeallow color.

 

[Finman]

Darkest honey I have got from aphid's honeydew.

I have had several races, but I could not see any difference in honey colors. Most of hives have been mixed races and I have extracted honey frames into the same container.

 

[Finman]

An exception is Yellow Poplar which makes a dark reddish colored honey that is a good table grade honey but does not bring the prices better types such as sourwood or chinese privet bring. Italian bees IME go gangbusters after yellow poplar.

Poplar makes honey only via aphid's honey dew.

 

[Beesnaturally]

The number of geographic races will likely increase with time as there are a few more regions they inhabit where the bees have not been characterized. I often refer to black bees as mellifera just because it is their correct name. However, black bees should have been divided into several geographic races instead of all being lumped under one name. There were clear differences between English brown bees and french black bees, yet they are considered the same race.

Hi Fusion Power. Would you agree there are complications, and pragmatics at work. Quite where we make a distinction between different races, and localised populations is often a matter of convenience.

Wherever beekeepers mix up imported races and strains the local populations have muddled ancestry, except to the degree that a large beekeeper or group of beekeepers strongly influences local genetics.

Where bees have a chance to self-select (and have sufficient clearance from medicated strains to build resistance) a 'feral' population will emerge that has those mixtures supplied by their ancestry that are best suited to their location. Given time the local genetics may slowly stabilise to produce a local strain.

Would you go along with that sort of picture?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

 

[Finman]

Where bees have a chance to self-select (and have sufficient clearance from medicated strains to build resistance) a 'feral' population will emerge that has those mixtures supplied by their ancestry that are best suited to their location. Given time the local genetics may slowly stabilise to produce a local strain.

Would you go along with that sort of picture?

Finland has never had its " local races or bees"
We are free to select what we want.

So have happened in every continent, where black bees have been exported.


When we had black beed, nobody wanted them when varroa started to kill hives. It took 10 years after varroa arrival that we got medicine against varroa.

After 10 years black bee was gone, even if nature wanted to keep them. But beekeepers did not protected them.

So have happened in most North European countries. Carniolan has substituted black bees' place.

We had lots of feral black bees 35 years ago, but they died in couple of years. They cannot come back becaud tjey do not exist sny mite.

We had 50 years ago much Caucasian bees, but beekeepers abandoned them.

90 % out of our bees are Italians. Who wanted them? ... Beekeepers.

 

[Finman]

Would you go along with that sort of picture?

Such fairypicture. A theory without any facts.

Feral population's maximum age is 2 years.
New genepools came from escaped swarms.

 

[Boston Bees]

I know. It's like being present when Stanley met Livingstone. Or when Plato met Socrates. Or when Pluto met Daffy Duck, not sure.

 

[Fusion_power]

Most likely Pluto and Daffy. Not sure who is which.

Not our experience over here, I've had honey ranging from so light it's almost clear to a nice medium colour and some (but not often) bordering on the lighter side of dark.

It is very well documented that different races and strains of bees select different flowers to preferentially collect nectar from. There was an attempt in the U.S. about 60 years ago to breed an "alfalfa" bee that would preferentially collect nectar from alfalfa. The breeding effort was successful but the result never caught on with beekeepers. Also, Brother Adam commented in "Breeding the HoneyBee" that black bees tend to prefer honeydew over flower nectar.

Finman, Yellow Poplar is a very good honey source here in the U.S. Floral nectaries produce an abundance in late May overlapping the bloom of lighter colored nectar producers. I've seen plenty of honeydew from oaks and other species, but never from yellow poplar.

Beesnaturally, the Primorski bees exist because a local population of bees were exposed to varroa for about 80 years. Any bees that were not tolerant were soon dead. There are two factors currently preventing development of resistance. The first is that resistance genes are VERY rare in most populations of bees. The second is that beekeepers keep propagating and maintaining bees that are susceptible via various medications. If it helps any, Italian derived bees have shown little or no tolerance to varroa. Carniolans have shown significant tolerance and breeding programs are selecting them. Pure A.m.m. showed very little tolerance, but when I finally found a queen that was tolerant, it had a huge dose of A.m.m. genetics. I can also show you where a local population of mostly A.m.m. ferals live that are expanding their area. It is a mostly wooded region with very few people living in it. Look for Amory, Mississippi on google maps. The region North and East of Amory has a population of about 10 colonies per square mile. A friend who is a logger hauled a few dozen colonies out of those woods a few years ago. He still keeps them in the logs they came in.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

t is very well documented that different races and strains of bees select different flowers to preferentially collect nectar from

really?

 

[Finman]

really?

I do not believe that strains and races can select what they forage. Most of the summer time bees gather what they find. A short time bees can go to nectar sources, where they get their belly full quickly from full flowers.

Bees are programmed so, that they go to various flowers even if they have 20 hectares osr field in front of them.

If it is true, that different races forage different flowers, then race crossings would be best foragers.

I can see often, that bees do not visit in red clover. But I see too, that I cannot see many bumbblebees either. When I look flower tubes, tubes do not have nectar. They are empty.

 

[Ian123]

Good job those AHB genes bypassed the north of your state. Africanized bees found in East Tennessee, beekeeper attacked

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe I should keep two strains of bees at the home apiary, just so that at the end of the season I can keep the Himalayan Balsam and heather honey in different hives.

 

[JamezF]

I do not believe that strains and races can select what they forage. Most of the summer time bees gather what they find. A short time bees can go to nectar sources, where they get their belly full quickly from full flowers.

There could perhaps be some preference if the genetics of different strains mean they exhibit different physical characteristics (which appears to be how different strains are classified)?

For example, if tongue length varies they might prefer some nectar sources over others because it's easier for them to get the nectar from plants that "fit" their tongue size. Obviously that doesn't necessarily mean they'll ignore other sources if they're the only ones that are available at the time.

Perhaps different strains might develop differing responses to flower colour (I'm including UV in my meaning of "colour" here) too, in which case they may also prefer some flowers to others given a choice?

Equally, when taken out of the environment in which they evolved, different strains will perhaps continue to evolve to be able to maximise their opportunities (though this isn't always possible).

James

 

[Finman]

There could perhaps be some preference if the genetics of different strains mean they exhibit

For example, if tongue length varies they might prefer some nectar sources over others

Perhaps different strains might develop differing responses to flower colour (I'm including UV in my meaning of "colour" here) too, in which case they may also prefer some flowers to others given a choice?

James

Tongue lenght has been known at leat 60 years. Caucasian has longest tongue but it did not made it favourite race.

We can imagine what ever about flower colors, but bees find the nectar even without colors like they find honey dew.

Most of all, they are same bee species, Apis mellifera, and races' biology is in genes. Every race cannot have different genes, better than others'. All are in hobby beekeepers imagination.

We know, what bee races are they have been nursed so long. We cannot imagine just like that. We have seen them. Dhoupd wf say hope beekeepers.

And we know well bee plants. It depends who knows. No mysteries can be found by race.

 

[JamezF]

Most of all, they are same bee species, Apis mellifera, and races' biology is in genes. Every race cannot have different genes,

So if they don't have different genes, what is it that causes the physical differences that mean they are classed as different subspecies of Am?

We can imagine what ever about flower colors, but bees find the nectar even without colors like they find honey dew.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they might not have a "preference" for (or find it easier to identify) one source over another. I'm not suggesting that it would be exclusive, unless the bees evolved in environment where, say, certain nectar sources no longer existed, in which case they might lose the ability to identify them.

James

 

[Finman]

So if they don't have different genes, what is it that causes the physical differences that mean they are classed as different subspecies of Am?

James

Of course infividual human persons and animal have different genes. That is why we are different. Sexual intercourse have meaning to mix genes and variations. Even bacteria copulate and change genes. And you have heard how corona viruses make variations.

Mere crossover mechanism in the meiosis can make in one man's testicles 1000 variations of sperms. And meiosis is the same system in plants and animals.

Genome in individuals and populations have plenty or harmfull gene mutations. And what ever.

But you surely understand, that sexual intercourse cannot make new fuctions, which does not exist in humans or in bees.

And when a new mutations happen, they are mostly harmfull. Something goes mostly wrong if something new happens in the genomy.

We beekeepers hope, that Apis Mellifera starts to act with varroa like Apis cerana does. Guys say/hope that mellifera has same gene functions hidden in genome like cerana has.

Hobby beekeepers can only hope, that a miracle will happen. And woth easy way. Hope after hope.
It has been hoped 90 years, that AFB resistant bees will appear via breeding one day. But it has not happened.

There are plenty of mammal species, who can make itself C-vitamin, but a human cannot make it. We can only hope, that one day we have that ability, because rat has it.

There are so much childish hopening in honey bee "genetics". And evolution arrange it. It just drops from sky among us.

 

[Finman]

, say, certain nectar sources no longer existed, in which case they might lose the ability to identify them.

James

Yes, I know plans, which have huge droplets of nectar in their flowers, but bees do not touch it.

There are huge pollen plants too, but bees do not gather the pollen, neither bumbblebees. One this kind of plant is Amelanchier spicata.

 

[JamezF]

Not for the first time, I'm confused.

The scientists and researchers who decide these things appear to me to be saying that different subspecies of Apis mellifera can be identified by a consistent set of physical attributes that exists within each group. There are perhaps other explanations, but a distinct set of genes could certainly explain those observations and for all I know may be the only way to explain them.

You appear to be saying either that genes are the same across all bees, or that it's just the individual genetic variation that we see exhibited as, for example, hair colour in humans.

I don't see how your explanation could give rise to identifiable groups with clear physical differences -- wing morphology appears to be a common distinguishing feature, for example.

If it's just random variations on a theme, how can specific populations of Am have a trait that is particular to them and doesn't appear in other populations of Am? What am I missing here?

James