Man made v natural breeding and selection

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Yes sorry. I seem to have all threads on watch as a moderator so can unwatch them
I can unwatch threads, just go to the top of any page in the thread and press the watch/unwatch button to change its status.
Not that it matter a jot as it still comes up in the what's new list as unread when a new post appears
 
I can unwatch threads, just go to the top of any page in the thread and press the watch/unwatch button to change its status.
Not that it matter a jot as it still comes up in the what's new list as unread when a new post appears
Yes...I can't see why people can't just ignore threads they are not interested in
 
Ok, all my honey is from now on RAW, extra expensive, and all my Queens are now Selected Varroa Tolerant VSH Excellent Extra Expensive Breeders, I have never treated. Only five minutes per year, it's nothing.
 
This is just a very general comment regarding "leave them alone" beekeeping. This style of beekeeping is neither natural selection nor is it man made breeding and selection. Leave them alone is still using man made hives with colonies concentrated to a density not normally found in nature. Should there be a third category of human influenced selection? Or is all bee breeding today influenced by humans?
 
This is just a very general comment regarding "leave them alone" beekeeping. This style of beekeeping is neither natural selection nor is it man made breeding and selection. Leave them alone is still using man made hives with colonies concentrated to a density not normally found in nature. Should there be a third category of human influenced selection? Or is all bee breeding today influenced by humans?
I think leave alone beekeeping should be deplored by anyone who calls themselves a beekeeper ... but there is a world of difference between leave alone beekeeping and being treatment free. The latter often requires more effort and knowledge of your bees than more conventional 'treat them for varroa regardless' beekeeping.

I know beekeepers who treat their bees with a variety of varroacides to 'keep the mites off' but rarely actually inspect their bees - and simply put supers on following the perceived wisdom of 'if you give them more space they won't swarm'.

About as bad a beekeeping as it gets and I certainly would not want to be tarred with that brush.
 
This is just a very general comment regarding "leave them alone" beekeeping. This style of beekeeping is neither natural selection nor is it man made breeding and selection. Leave them alone is still using man made hives with colonies concentrated to a density not normally found in nature. Should there be a third category of human influenced selection? Or is all bee breeding today influenced by humans?

Leave them alone means, that it happens like to feral bees, that varroa kills the colonies.

In old days leave them alone hives survived so long as they died.

In Finland varroa killed from a year 1980. There was no treatment during next 10 years which could save the apiary.

When I started 60 years ago, leave them alone was a common style of keep behives on backyard. Same eith skeps. What you can do to them. Put a piece of queen excluder on the top and 10 kg super.

One beekeeper died and left hives alone. Such story.
 
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Methinks Finman is getting subtle in his dotage.

Keeping bees in man made hives represents an intervention in the natural cycle of bee's lives. Preventing them from swarming is another intervention. Taking honey from them is another man made change in their lives. I strongly agree that 'leave them alone' beekeeping is very bad beekeeping.
 
Methinks Finman is getting subtle in his dotage.

Keeping bees in man made hives represents an intervention in the natural cycle of bee's lives. Preventing them from swarming is another intervention. Taking honey from them is another man made change in their lives. I strongly agree that 'leave them alone' beekeeping is very bad beekeeping.

A good idea!
 
This is just a very general comment regarding "leave them alone" beekeeping. This style of beekeeping is neither natural selection nor is it man made breeding and selection. Leave them alone is still using man made hives with colonies concentrated to a density not normally found in nature. Should there be a third category of human influenced selection? Or is all bee breeding today influenced by humans?
Yes, I think there should. 'Beekeeping respectful of the benefits of natural selection' might work for me, but it's a bit of a mouthful!

Isn't 'leave them alone' a bit of a straw man?

The key idea behind allowing bees to find their own route to resistance is that you stop preventing that by keeping unresistant bees alive, and feeding their unresistant genes into the next generation. And that you go on doing that, indefinitely.

With mammals you organise what is called a 'closed' breeding group. You, the (genetic) husbandryman select the parents that make each new generation, and banish all the rest. In that way you avoid nature's wastage. (And you have a system in which a single male can be worth millions)

But you have key controls beekeepers don't have. First, you can easily recognise the strengths you want to maintain and increase. Beekeepers seeking resistance really only have one way of doing that. That is to stop treating and see which survive and thrive. And/or locate bees that have those resistant traits, that is wild, feral, or survivor bees.

Second, the system of closed breeding, allowing you complete control of matings, is not available.


To a) locate, or facilitate a wild population, and let natural selection do it's magic, and b) draw on the results, and improve them, seems to be the obvious available route, given those things lacking to breeders of other lifeforms. It is demonstrated to work.

A Bond test may be part of your plan. But it is a process with an end in sight. Once you have located functional genes, and can can draw on them, you can rapidly spread them. And of course from then on you eliminate any weak individuals by requeening from the stronger, continuously.

I'm sure you know all this. I'm responding mainly to try to clarify things for others.

I agree fully with your statement about unnatural densities. But I don't think there is an optimum. Wild populations tend to build according to energy and nesting availability. That might mean a new disease will knock down more in any one location, but it would probably have knocked down the same proportion in any concentration.
 
Mr. Beesnaturally. You theories are not from this planet.

If life would be that easy, every boy and girl would have resistant bees. You just leave them alone. Another way is go to a forest, and find a resistant bee colony from a tree hole.


You a famous beekeeper. You should keep lectures in Coloss conferences.

In Finland system is so simple, that if you stop treating, you loose all colonies inside 2 years. Same has happ0ened in New Zealand, even if they have bought from Europe resistant bee stocks.

I wait, that all British colonies are mite resistant. But still I would not buy resistant Bristish Black bees. It is much more easier to nurse Italian bees' mites than black bees.
 
If life would be that easy, every boy and girl would have resistant bees.

I have several times stated clearly that the idea of having a discussion about causes and mechanisms is to be able to evaluate and plan.

Often the result will be the conclusion that it won't work for you.
 
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