Man made v natural breeding and selection

[Erichalfbee]

Evidences please!

JBM was talking to Beesnaturally I’m sure.

 

[madasafish]

Ah, but Mad, its far easier to claim to be new the new Messiah and request faith from you followers

He's not the Messiah - just a very naughty boy... (is the correct reply to the above)

 

[Sanntos]

I have fighted 20 years in internet with natural beekeepers. I have lost every battle.

Natural beekeepers use such data, which supports their religion.

But that suits to Finnish people. Finland have had 58 battle with Russians, but lost them all.

Wait a minute! You won the war 1939, the Winter War.

 

[Sanntos]

 

[Finman]

Wait a minute! You won the war 1939, the Winter War.

We were second.

 

[Sanntos]

It was impossible from the beginning. You had no air force, no heavy weapons at all, only a couple of tanks while the Soviet Union used several thousands of both aircraft and tanks. You had rifles, and knowledge of the forests. When Soviet had lost a several 100 000 men they were forced to the table.

 

[Finman]

It was impossible from the beginning. You had no air force, no heavy weapons at all, only a couple of tanks while the Soviet Union used several thousands of both aircraft and tanks. You had rifles, and knowledge of the forests. When Soviet had lost a several 100 000 men they were forced to the table.

However, a very sad story.
Finland was forced to table. We were very near to collapse. It was said that the war was too expencive to Soviet Union, and it was better to stop it. They waited and prepared for German invasion.

 

[Sanntos]

Yes a sad story, but you made an example. An inspiration even for Churchill....
But Putin obviously hasn't studied what happened, I believe he is truly invading Ukraine tomorrow, he thinks that country belongs to Russia

 

[Ian123]

Yes a sad story, but you made an example. An inspiration even for Churchill....
But Putin obviously hasn't studied what happened, I believe he is truly invading Ukraine tomorrow, he thinks that country belongs to Russia

Not to worry the Germans sent them lots of helmets!!!!

 

[Wilco]

Makes more sense to treat if you want to select for varroa resistance:

Flip the development of resistance concept around- think about how parasite/multicellular organism resistance to treatment develops... You rarely start with fully resistant individuals. Low level exposure to the insult (e.g. inappropriate dosing) selects for resistance genes becoming more prevalent and shifting population genetic profile over time.

Varroa unchecked will overwhelm a colony so they die out. Thus genes not passed on very effectively.

OA vaping kills most varroa but not all. Bees can survive with low levels. Reduce varroa to a level the bees can cope with and they can pass on any genes which may or may not exist that confer resistance.

Any putative genetic resistance to varroa is currently expressed at a low level through the population and I'd want to see data showing the bees had been genotyped and what loci were responsible for said resistance traits before believing any claims that 'such and such' bees are resistant. Untreated/feral it's probably swarming causing brood breaks plus internal environment of feral colonies which allows some to (appear to) survive rather than genetics.


Also if you're keeping bees, like any livestock, and know they are suffering from a parasite infestation but do nothing, you are neglecting them. They may not be legally protected but it's still neglect regardless of your beliefs.

 

[Antipodes]

Varroa unchecked will overwhelm a colony so they die out. Thus genes not passed on very effectively.

Surely it wouldn't overwhelm every colony that exists? If varroa was not treated anywhere from this point on, surely not every honey bee colony would die...or would it?

 

[Wilco]

Surely it wouldn't overwhelm every colony that exists? If varroa was not treated anywhere from this point on, surely not every honey bee colony would die...or would it?

Unchecked, yes.

Behaviours such as swarming help to check it for a time. (half-baked thought- arguably swarminess can be affected by genetics so one could argue that as a varroa resistance trait). I'd question whether such behaviours check varroa enough to allow for selection of resistance traits, if they exist.

 

[Finman]

Surely it wouldn't overwhelm every colony that exists? If varroa was not treated anywhere from this point on, surely not every honey bee colony would die...or would it?

What are you going to do with that answer?

 

[Antipodes]

What are you going to do with that answer?

Read it.

 

[Finman]

I'd question whether such behaviours check varroa enough to allow for selection of resistance traits, if they exist.

Every one just starts to do this and breed resistant bees. Have you idea, what happens to your honey yields? How many years you are going to continue your project? 10 years, 20 years, 40 years?

One guy just told to be, how he started to breed his apiary with slow evolution method.
He treated 150 hives less than normally. He was going to give space to gene evolution He lost first year 50 hives.

... was it a good idea?
What would you do in this case?
.

 

[Finman]

New Zeland bought resistant Carniolan bees from Europe 2007. The project lasted few years. They had 100 hives, and only one hive showed some resistance. Then funding of project was stopped.

Couple years ago the biggest queen breeder started breed resistant bees in NZ. He bought resistant queens from Austria and from Germany. What have happened then, I do not know.

 

[Wilco]

Every one just starts to do this and breed resistant bees. Have you idea, what happens to your honey yields? How many years you are going to continue your project? 10 years, 20 years, 40 years?

One guy just told to be, how he started to breed his apiary with slow evolution method.
He treated 150 hives less than normally. He was going to give space to gene evolution He lost first year 50 hives.

... was it a good idea?
What would you do in this case?
.

No clue on yield but doubt it would increase in the short term for sure. Up to him for his bees but I treat mine... I'm after honey, wax and bees.

 

[Beesnaturally]

...you cant possibly know you have long lasting feral as a continuous occupation unless they are monitored 24/7/365.

That's daft. I have 60 odd hives full of untreated bees that I do monitor, in exactly the same ways all beekeepers do. My losses year on year are around 10%, and that's without any requeening.

My experience of local feral colonies I've observed (6) is that most are not continuously occupied, but replenished with swarms, purely as judged by activity (or lack of) during the year.
last season i saw a large swarm overwhelm and occupy a weak nuc that was to be shook out. why couldn't that happen with you 'continuous ferals' as well?

In some cases winter deaths are replaced by early swarms, but there is usually an interval of very low activity once the honey has been cleared out.

But what is it that happens to the bees you imagine will die within a year a two when I home them, that allows them to live on in some cases for 7 or 8 years now? Obviously it's not the change of locality. So it has to be that they arrived with inbuilt resistance.

Let me be clear, in the early days many did die. But something like a third didn't. As time went by, and I trapped their swarms, and made splits from the best losses gradually reduced.

I'll say the same to you that I said to finman: read the literature - I've supplied you with leads. The science is in place, the mechanisms largely understood, and many beekeepers are getting the same results. But to get them, you have to know how this works. It won't work everywhere, it won't work simply by importing resistant queens (at least not everywhere, but, if you choose the right spot and get the right colony, it's very simple. Open your eyes.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Pot/Kettle colour check?

No data? I have had sixty plus hives for ten years. I have all the data I need.

I can't pass it to you because you won't believe me. So you keep asking for something I can't give you.

But I can pass you the literature, which explains how to do it, why it works, and evidence of it working that I don't suppose you will think invented.

I'm not saying you could go it - I don't know your circumstances. But you could stop blindly claiming it's impossible. Even a cursory glance at the literature will demonstrate that is unsustainable.

 

[Curly green finger's]

That's daft. I have 60 odd hives full of untreated bees that I do monitor, in exactly the same ways all beekeepers do. My losses year on year are around 10%, and that's without any requeening.



In some cases winter deaths are replaced by early swarms, but there is usually an interval of very low activity once the honey has been cleared out.

But what is it that happens to the bees you imagine will die within a year a two when I home them, that allows them to live on in some cases for 7 or 8 years now? Obviously it's not the change of locality. So it has to be that they arrived with inbuilt resistance.

Let me be clear, in the early days many did die. But something like a third didn't. As time went by, and I trapped their swarms, and made splits from the best losses gradually reduced.

I'll say the same to you that I said to finman: read the literature - I've supplied you with leads. The science is in place, the mechanisms largely understood, and many beekeepers are getting the same results. But to get them, you have to know how this works. It won't work everywhere, it won't work simply by importing resistant queens (at least not everywhere, but, if you choose the right spot and get the right colony, it's very simple. Open your eyes.

I do wonder how this is working for you you only have 60 colonys and you live in Kent!? But say you have 10% losses?
Do you open mate your queens?
Do you know your local folk with hives?
If you were more isolated I would say keep going, apologies if this sounds abit ruff.
I've spent the last three years trying to get purer Amm queen's and will probably spend the next decade or two doing just that.

What leads and what antedotel science?