Hi and help on hive selection, to polyhive or not and what's wrong with langstroths!

[linoleum bonypart]

No one has mentioned 14x12s
£106 for a full swientt poly from cwynnjones

 

[Little John]

The Langstroth frames once you are used to handling them just feel right and just seem to suit the bees very well. It is no accident it is the most popular hive type world wide, and just a pity the UK is cursed with so many hive types.

I think our situation is relatively straightforward, judging by the perennial arguments on American beekeeping forums about the various merits of 8- vs 10-frame, and those of shallow, medium, deep and extra-deep boxes ...

I think you'll find the reason why Langstroths have world-wide popularity is as a result of aggressive US marketing. Even so, the simplicity of their box construction is certainly a good selling point. But - I wouldn't change now, even if Langs were given away free.
LJ

 

[Willardx]

Is your preference national?

 

[Stiffy]

I have said for many years, if I started again or could get rid of all my National hive parts and swap for Langs, I would jump at the opportunity.
Nationals are a pain in the bum and too small for modern bees that need space.
As I am stuck with 100+ National supers I am adding ekes to brood boxes and slowly moving over to 14x12's. Although 14x12 frames need careful waxing to ensure they don't sag they work well (for me anyway). All my new hives are now 14x12 poly, bees do far better in them, when full they are easy to lift and after a coat of paint last a very long time.
S

 

[For want of a better word]

In Essex you will probably only be able to get hybridised types of bee that boom in the Spring and will easily fill a Lanstroffs box or two in a couple of weeks of good weather... great if the weather and forage is with you ... costly in invert if you have to feed them all season!

My preference is for polly National standard size brood box as it suits my local bee type and conditions. I use the BHS UK manufactured product, have trialled other polly Nationals that are being sold... but the BHS has some good features that make the bee and beekeeper friendly.
My bees seem to be happy and fucund and prolific and good honey producers.. season in season out.... in a std polly Nationals.

One of the biggest beefarmers in the north of the UK uses polly Smiths very successfully ( 1000 + they own their own molds)

I have in the days gone by used Langstroffs, Dadatants, Commercials.... all nice and heavy when full.....

Your choice!

Yeghes da

 

[Beefriendly]

I have said for many years, if I started again or could get rid of all my National hive parts and swap for Langs, I would jump at the opportunity.
S

Until last week I would have agreed totally.....then a friend showed me a poly Dadant brood box .....wow!
It's nice and big, probably spot on for keeping today's fecund queens in a single brood box......local bees need not apply ......
They even come in 1/2 sizes if one gets worried about lifting a heavy large box....

 

[Willardx]

It seems bigger is better. Where do commercials fit in here?

 

[Beefriendly]

It seems bigger is better.

Yes and no.
The strain of bees you keep will really determine the size of the brood box(es) they need. There is no point putting a non productive strain of bee in a large box it will just be a waste. You need fecund queens, which usually means buying in quality queens. These will (in most cases) require a double National brood box plus supers.
So usually (there are always exceptions) Italian queens, Carniolan Queens and Buckfast queens will require large boxes. In my area the local mongrels struggle to fill 5 frames on a National with brood so a single National brood box is actually too big for them!
Perhaps best to find out what the mongrels are like in your area. If everyone is keeping them in single National brood boxes and you decide you want to use these bees then this is the size you should aim for. There will be a lot of peer pressure on you to use local area adapted mongrels. And perhaps wiser to walk before you run, large colonies of bees are not everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Brigsy]

This is all really useful stuff. Many thanks. Many people at the association are recommending commercials but they seem impossible to source cheaply.

Maisemore do poly commercial.

 

[masterBK]

My mongrel queens (after several yrs of selection) kept in double Brood nationals easily manage to produce a brood nest 16 of 17 combs of brood by end of April/beginning of May and I am not that much further south than Beefriendly. It is easier to find a box to fit the bee rather than the other way round. I have used Langstroths in the past but didn't like short lugs, working the hive from the side or the handholes. I did like the top bee space and the simplicity of construction. I still needed to run double brood Langstroths as the Langstroth BC is not that much bigger volume wise than National.

 

[pargyle]

It's a question that gets asked on a regular basis.

So many people now prefer polys ... for lots of reasons .. Cost, convenience, bees seem to like them, that it's almost a no brainer - perhaps the question you should be asking is which Poly ... and there's a good thread here:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38438

In terms of size - the most common hives in the UK are based on the national format - and Langstroth just does not fit with Nationals - so, if it were me then I would be looking at either Standard Nationals or 14 x 12's (which I prefer). Being the most common the frames for these are most readily available in the sales as are the boxes. Another no brainer really - so many advantages to working with a popular size format.

If you were in the USA then Langstroths predominate and it would be a different no-brainer ...

But .... your decision is a personal one... and it may change on your beekeeping journey - the thing to do is try out as many formats as you can before committing - the feel, the weight, just where the handholds lie in relation to your body size - and how a full frame of bees feels in your hands has an impact on your decision. The worst thing to have is a variety of different hive formats as one of the most useful aspects of having the same format in your apiary is to be able to swap boxes and frams around when you need to and have them fit ...

Ask any group of beekeepers what they prefer and.... well ... have a look here !

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32513

 

[Little John]

Is your preference national?

Is that me ? Yes. One of the things I like about Nationals (the modern 'Modified' National, that is) is that - unlike the Langstroth - when you pick up a National box, you do so with a decent handful of timber - none of those 'D' handholds that are only good for getting your fingernails into.

And then there are the frame lugs - yes, I know they have a crazy length - but you kinda get used to them. I'd hate to use short lugs now.

What else ? The width. Ideal for dividing into a pair of 5-frame nucs, which can then be mounted on top of a standard brood.

My only gripe is the depth - nowhere near deep enough. 14x12's are better, and I'm currently trialling 14x14 in one hive (and 14x18 in another - which I haven't gone public about yet). The bees really seem to flourish on deeper frames.
LJ

 

[Willardx]

No one has mentioned 14x12s
£106 for a full swientt poly from cwynnjones

This sounds promising....

 

[madasafish]

It seems bigger is better. Where do commercials fit in here?

It depends on your physical strength and your back and your lifting technique. A BIG Brood box is not something you are likely to move very often.. It can be VERY heavy...

I run Lang jumbo brood and shallow supers - so a full super is c 30KG which is easily liftable by me... but may be too heavy for others...

I have all my hive stands between 250-30cms off the ground to ease my back. and have vacant unused spoaces on the stand so I can place supers on them - avoiding picking up off the ground - which is a no=no as far as I am concerned.....

 

[Swarm]

Swienty are your best option IMO, equally good hand grip but on all faces not just the two frame end sides. The D grips of Langs are compounded with paynes poly boxes. at least they are central on Langs, they are offset on paynes and not much more than fingertips fit these too. A very poor design.

Swienty also have the advantage of being the same footprint as wooden boxes so all the standard 460mm hardware fits properly.
You will see all manner of stuff about differences in insulation qualities but to be honest, any of the offerings are perfectly good for housing your bees so concern yourself with what is easiest for you and what suits your beekeeping.

 

[Willardx]

So if the swienty has the same footprint as its wood equivalent, does it has less frames to account for the greater width?

 

[Willardx]

Swienty are your best option IMO, equally good hand grip but on all faces not just the two frame end sides. The D grips of Langs are compounded with paynes poly boxes. at least they are central on Langs, they are offset on paynes and not much more than fingertips fit these too. A very poor design.

Swienty also have the advantage of being the same footprint as wooden boxes so all the standard 460mm hardware fits properly.
You will see all manner of stuff about differences in insulation qualities but to be honest, any of the offerings are perfectly good for housing your bees so concern yourself with what is easiest for you and what suits your beekeeping.

I like this logic. Great stuff

 

[Swarm]

Swienty has one less frame. I'd imagine that may be beneficial with 14x12, it certainly is with standard on double brood. 10 over 10 is a better nest size than 11 over 11, at least for my bees.
I run mine with top bee space and make my own roofs and underfloor entrances. I also use wooden supers, they are cheaper

 

[Poly Hive]

Actually to be accurate sometimes Swienty is 10 and sometimes a tight 11 frames but to standardise I run with ten.

The critical bonus with poly is the bees just do better in them. ITLD will tell you some 20% more across his large operation, and in my more modest experience I can tell you they start brooding later and then rapidly over take the timber hives and never look back.

Swarms will start building comb on the foundation next to the wall instead of the middle frame as far from the timber wall they can get. Mine are currently wintering right next to the junction of two walls. And they are there as it is the warmest place to be.

Bees love to be dry and cosy. But some just cannot see it.

PH

 

[Stiffy]

Until last week I would have agreed totally.....then a friend showed me a poly Dadant brood box .....wow!
It's nice and big, probably spot on for keeping today's fecund queens in a single brood box......local bees need not apply ......
They even come in 1/2 sizes if one gets worried about lifting a heavy large box....

I am sure they good but it's an expensive game with too many choices, in the end you have choose and stick to it.
I expect the piddling national will eventually lose favour but it may take a long time when so many are happy keeping pet bees .
S