Foundationless beekeeping

[VEG]

As stated by Tom in his first post this is NOT about maximising the honey crop.


Craig

 

[Finman]

As stated by Tom in his first post this is NOT about maximising the honey crop.


Craig

I have the same opinion. He wants to make natural combs.

About wires: they must be stailess steel and so tight that they sing like quitar.
They support the comb when extracting.

.The frames can be very silmple. Just 4 even sticks nailed together.

Hoffman frames are needed when you migrate beehives.

It is second step from top bar combs.

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[Finman]

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Eastern European beekeepers use simple systems because they have not much money to get table saws and all kind of nailers.

 

[Tom Bick]

Say, what do you think is the main thing or things that eventually lead to loss of a larger honey crop due to the fact that you're using foundationless beekeeping? Is it simply the fact that (a) they use up a lot of honey to build the comb, which in turn would mean less honey stored in the supers, or could it be (as Finman suggests) the fact that (b) there will be more drone brood, which in turn would lead to fewer workers when many workers are needed, which in turn leads to less foraging?

Many factors go towards a good honey crop and to me I find it hard to notice a noticeable decrease in my yields partly down to my gradual expansion and gaining more experience. In the past on foundation my best individual hives have produced 95lb’s of honey and I have also achieved this with two hives this past two years following my full conversion to foundationless frames.

Obviously this is not in some peoples range and may be considered small but for my suburban bees on the outskirts of London with no OSR pretty good given what others manage.

You can remove drone brood I have experimented in the past by simply cutting it away. It also helps with varrao control. When I have removed sections of drone brood the bees approx 80% of the time simply replace it with drone even after moving the frame to a part of the hive I would not expect drone comb. Its as though they know what they want. You get the best results later in the season for the bees to replace drone comb with worker comb for obvious reasons but also they are less reluctant to build comb and you can have holes in the frames. The best thing is perhaps to save good frames with little drone comb so as to replace ones that are high in drone comb. Personally I am now happy with the 20% drone comb and all the drones in the hives.

I am not in this for a maximum honey crop that will be like searching for the holy grail of beekeeping and I get all the honey I want and then some. To me its about the pleasure I get all season working with the bees and trying to observe them and this lasts way longer than counting supers.

Finman is probably right and research will prove that foundationless beekeeping can / will impact on your honey crop but don’t be scared you won’t get any. If you are going into this for the money then it may not be for you.

 

[ugcheleuce]

The biggest noticeable difference in the brood box without doubt is the amount of drone comb and on average 20% the result is 1000’s of drones in the hive and it will have to be something you will have to get used to. The drone comb is spread throughout the frames sometimes a frame will be 70% drone and others with no drone.

Would it not, given this situation, make sense to try to force the bees to build drone comb where you can easily cut it and remove it?

For example (assuming you're not *against* the use of foundation), if you're using National brood frames (comb = 20 cm tall), place a 10 cm tall strip of drone foundation at the bottom end of every third frame. That works out to just under 20% of comb area per 3 frames. Hopefully the bees will then build the drone comb on the drone foundation, and since the drone foundation is still evenly spaced throughout the hive, they will hopefully build less of it elsewhere. Also, having the drone comb in one place will allow you to easily and regularly cull the drone brood as part of a varroa treatment, and will allow you to temporarily reduce the amount of open drone brood when you need more worker bees for the start of the flow.

 

[pargyle]

The crimping tool is just that and will not tighten the wire. It will make it look less slack and if pressure is applied the wire will straighten but once incorporated into the wax will probably be fine. I have strong hands and a simple jig, a board with four nails that hold the frame steady on the four corners, so I can pull the wire tight without distorting the frame and my taped soar fingers after will tell you so.

QUOTE]

I made a little tool out of an old screwdriver to insert eyelets .. ground down the end to the size of the internal diameter of the eyelet, I left a shoulder on the blade which the top of the eyelet sits against .. makes it dead easy to pick them up and insert them into the hole drilled in the frame and quick - just a firm push fit.

I crimp my wires and it does have the effect of tightening them up and no sore fingers - I fasten them in place first then run the crimping tool over each bit of exposed wire two or three times - they sing like Finnies guitar afterwards. But I like the fishing line idea as it appears to be more bee friendly.

 

[ugcheleuce]

The crimping tool is just that and will not tighten the wire. It will make it look less slack and if pressure is applied the wire will straighten but once incorporated into the wax will probably be fine.

Yes, it may be that the reason for using the crimping tool has to do with getting the wire straight for easily burning it into foundation... and you're not using foundation, so the wire doesn't have to be straight for that reason.

 

[ugcheleuce]

As stated by Tom in his first post this is NOT about maximising the honey crop.

Actually Tom doesn't say that in his first post (although he does say it in response to my second-to-most-recent post)

There is nothing wrong with discussing maximisation of honey crop within a topic about foundationless beekeeping, I think, but it must be said (and Tom said it) that if you're going to go foundationless, you'll get less honey than if you don't go foundationless.

 

[Tom Bick]

Would it not, given this situation, make sense to try to force the bees to build drone comb where you can easily cut it and remove it?

For example (assuming you're not *against* the use of foundation), if you're using National brood frames (comb = 20 cm tall), place a 10 cm tall strip of drone foundation at the bottom end of every third frame. That works out to just under 20% of comb area per 3 frames. Hopefully the bees will then build the drone comb on the drone foundation, and since the drone foundation is still evenly spaced throughout the hive, they will hopefully build less of it elsewhere. Also, having the drone comb in one place will allow you to easily and regularly cull the drone brood as part of a varroa treatment, and will allow you to temporarily reduce the amount of open drone brood when you need more worker bees for the start of the flow.

I must have been reading your mind ugcheleuce as I sort of answered that post in my previous post lol.

I am not against foundation I think it is a wonderful tool for the beekeeper and I think your idea may perhaps result in more drone comb.

 

[Finman]

Many factors go towards a good honey crop and to me I find it hard to notice a noticeable decrease in my yields partly down to my gradual expansion and gaining more experience. .

It is impossible to see "decrease". How can you see it? And if I understand correctly, London area has quite small yields. Perhaps too much bees in flowers. My bet.

- If you put hives in several places, you will see that honey yield depends on pastures, how good and how far. 3 fold yields are usual, and I have met often 5 fold. Next summer you get something else. Impossible to predict that.

If the hive has swarming fever durin main flow, you may get very small yield from that hive, even if next door hive bring 70 kg in 2 weeks.

However, I give every year to hives 2 boxes foundations to be drawn. It is very necessary to keep a good comb store. When the main flow starts, all ready combs are needed.

I have had this debate with Michael Bush 20 times. Natural comb guys have their own truths.

To get good yields, migrative beekeeping is very necessary, and that needs very good combs and frames that they will not be broken during transporting. I have transported honey combs with bicycle, moped carry and with sedan carry. It was sedan which broke my combs.

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[Tom Bick]

Many factors go towards a good honey crop and to me I find it hard to notice a noticeable decrease in my yields partly down to my gradual expansion and gaining more experience. In the past on foundation my best individual hives have produced 95lb’s of honey and I have also achieved this with two hives this past two years following my full conversion to foundationless frames.

Finman is probably right and research will prove that foundationless beekeeping can / will impact on your honey crop but don’t be scared you won’t get any. If you are going into this for the money then it may not be for you.

It is impossible to see "decrease". How can you see it? And if I understand correctly, London area has quite small yields. Perhaps too much bees in flowers. My bet.

- If you put hives in several places, you will see that honey yield depends on pastures, how good and how far. 3 fold yields are usual, and I have met often 5 fold. Next summer you get something else. Impossible to predict that.

If the hive has swarming fever durin main flow, you may get very small yield from that hive, even if next door hive bring 70 kg in 2 weeks.

However, I give every year to hives 2 boxes foundations to be drawn. It is very necessary to keep a good comb store. When the main flow starts, all ready combs are needed.

Yes you are right Finman and perhaps the wording could have been better selected.

I have been told many times and not just from this place that I will get no honey and all I have to compare is previous years and neighboring beekeepers. Obviously no two years are the same and I know I have good sites that seem to produce similar each year or they have over my eight years. Its with this knowledge I am able to say I have not noticed any great decrease in honey and the averages seem to hold up but equally possible over the past two years I could have broken records

As for London to be precise I am Greater London towards the outskirts and as a result good forage, not what you would call good but I am happy.



I just want to add I don’t want this thread to be considered of having a go at you in any way or beefarmers as a whole I respect what you do and can embrace all forms of beekeeping but this is just little me proud to be a bit of a tree hugger and doing it this way and passing it on so that perhaps others may one day give it a go.

 

[Finman]

As for London to be precise I am Greater London towards the outskirts and as a result good forage, not what you would call good but I am happy.

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Actually I have lived in Capital City Helsinki 46 years. My hives have been 100 miles away in the north east corner of Finland.

There very few beekeepers and that is why I bougth summer cottage there.
I have travelled there every weeks end during 46 years to nurse my bees.

You see that is not a business. I had my work in Helsinki.

I can select best pastures to my bees. It is very difficult job and needs skills and experience and most of all , greedy mind.

I started beekeeping in a small town Kouvola, and I found very early that home district did not give any honey in July. And I started my migrative beekeeping very early.

Now I keep only 3 hives in one site. Bees collect cream from pastures.

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Without good yields it is impossible to keep bees at that distance. Too much costs.

 

[pargyle]

I just want to add I don’t want this thread to be considered of having a go at you in any way or beefarmers as a whole I respect what you do and can embrace all forms of beekeeping but this is just little me proud to be a bit of a tree hugger and doing it this way and passing it on so that perhaps others may one day give it a go.

Good for you Tom.... like I just said on another thread ... Beekeeping is often about people's opinion about how and what they do with their bees ... there is inevitably more than one way of doing things ... very few right and wrongs after you get past the basics.

 

[VEG]

Actually Tom doesn't say that in his first post (although he does say it in response to my second-to-most-recent post)
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"First if your sole intentions in beekeeping is all about honey production then perhaps this is not for you"

Must have misread the above fro tom then

 

[Itchy]

I might try a little experiment with the swarms I collect next season...
Rubbed wax on top bars
Strip wax
Sheet wax

 

[ugcheleuce]

Actually Tom doesn't say that in his first post (although he does say it in response to my second-to-most-recent post).

Tom wrote:
First if your sole intentions in beekeeping is all about honey production then perhaps this is not for you

Must have misread the above from Tom then.

Yes You and I interpret what Tom said in that sentence, in two different ways, possibly due to preconceived ideas...?

 

[Tom Bick]

Actually I have lived in Capital City Helsinki 46 years. My hives have been 100 miles away in the north east corner of Finland.

There very few beekeepers and that is why I bougth summer cottage there.
I have travelled there every weeks end during 46 years to nurse my bees.

You see that is not a business. I had my work in Helsinki.

I can select best pastures to my bees. It is very difficult job and needs skills and experience and most of all , greedy mind.

I started beekeeping in a small town Kouvola, and I found very early that home district did not give any honey in July. And I started my migrative beekeeping very early.

Now I keep only 3 hives in one site. Bees collect cream from pastures.

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Without good yields it is impossible to keep bees at that distance. Too much costs.

And there was me thinking all these years you are a big time beefarmer and all the more impressive your results are now. Good luck for next season.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Blasted three hive owners!

 

[Moggett]

An interesting thread by Tom.

I tried frames without foundation a few years ago, but alternated them with foundation frames so the bees drew the combs straight down using the foundation as a guide. I glued lolly sticks to the top and sides of the frames to further encourage vertical comb building.

I didn't reinforce the frames with wire so had to mark them with a drawing pin so I knew which were to be kept vertical when inspected.

The combs produced were straight but I ended up going back to foundation purely due to the excessive amounts of drone being produced (I was mainly worried about becoming a varroa breeding station although it was very unusual to find varroa when uncapped).

I may try again this year in view of Tom's comments about mixing frames, and will use 100% without foundation but with starter strips and fishing line as suggested on this thread.

I may try in just one of the hives to see how they get on, but will still use the drawn super frames I have above the QE.

 

[Tom Bick]

Good luck moggett let us know how you get on.

I would recommend a strong fishing line my friend was a bit of a sea fisherman so he had 15-20 lbs I am more a fly fisher and my max line is 5lb and perhaps no good and a bit light as the bees may chew it and fray it or even right through??