Foundationless beekeeping

[whoosling]

Really interesting didn't see this earlier on.

 

[Stickyfingers]

Fishing Line and Carton Strips

Anyone know how you tie up the line?

http://www.beebehavior.com/foundationless_frames_brood_area.php

 

[pargyle]

Fishing Line and Carton Strips

Anyone know how you tie up the line?

http://www.beebehavior.com/foundationless_frames_brood_area.php

That's an interesting link ... nice photos.

I suspect that the fishing line is just tightened by hand - round a frame nail to start with and then you could thread it through all the holes and then wrap the tail of the line round a piece of timber to give you enough leverage to tension it. Then wrap it round a frame nail and trap it - or put a staple across the end to keep it tight ?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Fishing Line ... Anyone know how you tie up the line?

Loop one end round an angled tack, then knock the tack flat to secure the line. Do the same at the other end once the fishing line has been pulled fairly tight. Pictures on this blog http://tinyurl.com/nwd6wnj

 

[Ross]

Very interesting thread, thanks for starting it and sharing your experiences.

I have been intending to try foundationless beekeeping this season and this thread has only added to my enthusiasm for it.

Initially I wanted to move away from foundation because of contamination of the wax, however, I have spent the winter reading Michael Bush's book. He advocates using foundationless beekeeping as the workers will build slightly smaller cells and be correspondingly smaller. After several cycles of comb changes the bees will be back to the "original" pre-foundation bee size and are in theory are better able to cope with varroa. He certainly no longer treats for varroa.

The simple technique that he recommends in his book for reusing frames as foundationless, is simply to take an old brood frame and cut out the comb leaving one cell all the way around the frame. To me that seems like a very easy way forward and what I plan to try this year. I think I will also wire with fishing line as I use 14x12 frames.

I am definitely a middle of the road beekeeper, I use polyhives but like the idea of using more natural beekeeping methods so try and take the best from both sides.

 

[lebouche]

Great thread, thanks for this Tom!
As I think I mentioned before I'm running mostly foundationless. Only I made the foolish mistake of not using wires….14x12 too! Don't know how I'm going to remedy that!
Only two hives at the moment so will get the next ones right. I only had a few teaspoons of honey, the bee inspector had a jar though for sampling.
Really want my bees just to bee happy too! Tree huggers unite! Oh, and nice to really learn about Finman too and have that little insight into how cool he actually is! Working in the city and commuting to the bees every weekend for how many years!!!! That's dedication.

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks lebouch. No wires will require careful handling a bit like the TBH but not impossible, perhaps start replacing them one or two at a time.

 

[MonseigneurBienvenu]

Lovely thread!

Tom, I think you have answered this already, if not directly, but would it work to put one wired foundationless frame between a couple of existing Hoffmans (fully drawn since last year) in the middle of the brood nest? I have a couple of DN1s to exorcise from one of the hives, and it'd be superb to experiment with foundationless as I do that. But I can just see the bees either ignoring the frame and swallowing it up by thickening the adjacent ones or doing something else untoward.

Thank you!

A

 

[Moggett]

Tom, Have you tried a shook swarm just using the foundation-less frames, if so will they build straight comb in your opinion?

 

[Moggett]

Lovely thread!

Tom, I think you have answered this already, if not directly, but would it work to put one wired foundationless frame between a couple of existing Hoffmans (fully drawn since last year) in the middle of the brood nest? I have a couple of DN1s to exorcise from one of the hives, and it'd be superb to experiment with foundationless as I do that. But I can just see the bees either ignoring the frame and swallowing it up by thickening the adjacent ones or doing something else untoward.

Thank you!

A

I used to do this and found they filled the frame with comb without any problems. The only issue I had was they tended to build drone comb as their natural drone % appeared to be suppressed by the foundation frames that surrounded them. It was not uncommon to see 50/50 worker/drone on such frames.

 

[pargyle]

Tom, Have you tried a shook swarm just using the foundation-less frames, if so will they build straight comb in your opinion?

Hi ... My bees started out as a swarm last June .. I put one frame of drawn comb in the hive and the rest were foundationless (wired) 14x12 ... Dummied down, initially, to four frames.

There was no problem with them building from scratch .. they had five frames of drawn comb within the first week. I gave them a few litres (can't recall off hand whether they had 2.5 litre or 5 litres) of 1:1 to give them a start - and they went off like a rocket. Combs straight as a die.

Ana
You won't have any problems with interspersing drawn and empty foundationless ...

Any doubts feel free to have a look at the first set of inspection photos in June here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/sets/

And the subsequent sets show the rest of last years inspections.

 

[MonseigneurBienvenu]

I used to do this and found they filled the frame with comb without any problems. The only issue I had was they tended to build drone comb as their natural drone % appeared to be suppressed by the foundation frames that surrounded them. It was not uncommon to see 50/50 worker/drone on such frames.

Very good point! I shall have to consider it carefully..

 

[pargyle]

I used to do this and found they filled the frame with comb without any problems. The only issue I had was they tended to build drone comb as their natural drone % appeared to be suppressed by the foundation frames that surrounded them. It was not uncommon to see 50/50 worker/drone on such frames.

When fully foundationless you will find that the percentage of drone comb is often higher than when using foundation but the bees seem to build drone comb when they feel it is needed and (in my hive) convert it back to worker comb later in the year ... they seemed to, eventually, get fed up of re-modelling and either left the drone cells empty or finally filled them with stores.

Its fascinating to see what happens when you leave them to get on with what they do naturally, without any serious external influence. I accept that frames are an artificial structure but I suspect that, in a tree trunk, they would probably use any convenient adjacent structures to attach comb to. Frankly, if they didn't like frames they wouldn't use them.

 

[Moggett]

Very good point! I shall have to consider it carefully..

If it's the only non foundation frame you may end up with a whole frame of drone, especially during swarming season!

 

[pargyle]

If it's the only non foundation frame you may end up with a whole frame of drone, especially during swarming season!

I think that's unlikely as they tend to keep drone cells to the periphery of the brood areas .. if there are times when forage is hard to come by you will see that they tend to preserve the worker brood in the middle of the comb and the drone brood towards the edges gets neglected or even dumped.

I agree that you might get drone cells all around the outer part of the frame - mainly on the lower portions but if the frame is put in the middle of the brood area or at one end of it I think you'll find that it becomes a pretty 'normal' comb with a mix of cell sizes.

A higher proportion of drone comb is no bad thing ... gives you a good opportunity to check for varroa by uncapping a couple of hundred cells. If you find mites in there then you can sacrifice a good percentage of drone cells with brood in them to reduce the mite count and interefere with the varroa breeding cycle. Cut the drone brood out, freeze it to kill the mites, and you will have some very valuable 'fresh' white beeswax to reclaim as well. The bees will rebuild the comb to suit their needs.

If, like me (and Tom) you find that your varroa load is much reduced then there's no problem leaving them to do their own thing - if they feel like building drone cells - so what ? It's their hive .. we just share it with them.

It's a slightly different beekeeping philosophy and I accept that there may be some reduction in honey production but it's all about balance.

 

[Moggett]

I think that's unlikely as they tend to keep drone cells to the periphery of the brood areas .. if there are times when forage is hard to come by you will see that they tend to preserve the worker brood in the middle of the comb and the drone brood towards the edges gets neglected or even dumped.

I agree that you might get drone cells all around the outer part of the frame - mainly on the lower portions but if the frame is put in the middle of the brood area or at one end of it I think you'll find that it becomes a pretty 'normal' comb with a mix of cell sizes.

A higher proportion of drone comb is no bad thing ... gives you a good opportunity to check for varroa by uncapping a couple of hundred cells. If you find mites in there then you can sacrifice a good percentage of drone cells with brood in them to reduce the mite count and interefere with the varroa breeding cycle. Cut the drone brood out, freeze it to kill the mites, and you will have some very valuable 'fresh' white beeswax to reclaim as well. The bees will rebuild the comb to suit their needs.

If, like me (and Tom) you find that your varroa load is much reduced then there's no problem leaving them to do their own thing - if they feel like building drone cells - so what ? It's their hive .. we just share it with them.

It's a slightly different beekeeping philosophy and I accept that there may be some reduction in honey production but it's all about balance.

Hi Pargayle, I used a foundation-less mix for about 2 years so was speaking from experience*. I found the bees took advantage of the lack of foundation regardless on where the frame was positioned. I wouldn't do the mixed method again but would consider 100% without foundation if I could be sure they would make straight consistent comb.

As posted earlier I may try shook swarming a colony onto the frame type at the beginning of the thread to see what happens - unless someone posts that they did it and it was a failure!

* I did get some 100% drone frames depending on time of year and the particular colony

 

[fiftyjon]

Shirely..., when the colony is expanding (during spring time) and they have space or frames without foundation they will build worker comb for the work force instead of drone comb. If, depending on the time of the season (after mid summer) they still have space or frames without foundation available they build larger cells for storing honey, either above the brood nest or at the outside, but if the queen is needing space to lay and there are larger cells available she pops in an unfertilised egg so you see there are more drones.

IMHO....of course

 

[Moggett]

Shirely..., when the colony is expanding (during spring time) and they have space or frames without foundation they will build worker comb for the work force instead of drone comb. If, depending on the time of the season (after mid summer) they still have space or frames without foundation available they build larger cells for storing honey, either above the brood nest or at the outside, but if the queen is needing space to lay and there are larger cells available she pops in an unfertilised egg so you see there are more drones.

IMHO....of course

Although I did this a few years ago I am certain that the occasional full frame of drone was produced as I can remember putting complete frames in the chicken run for them to peck out. I wouldn't have done this if worker brood was present. I'm not saying they will always make a full frame of drone, the majority of foundation-less drone frames also contained worker brood too. It may be my bees at the time (I think it was just one colony that tended to do this) were just that way inclined - all I'm saying is that it is possible.

 

[pargyle]

- all I'm saying is that it is possible.

Well ... can't disagree with that - it's the one thing in beekeeping that remains constant - they will do what they want to do !! I would not question your experience and am not in the least bit surprised that it happened.

 

[Tom Bick]

Lovely thread!

Tom, I think you have answered this already, if not directly, but would it work to put one wired foundationless frame between a couple of existing Hoffmans (fully drawn since last year) in the middle of the brood nest? I have a couple of DN1s to exorcise from one of the hives, and it'd be superb to experiment with foundationless as I do that. But I can just see the bees either ignoring the frame and swallowing it up by thickening the adjacent ones or doing something else untoward.

Thank you!

A

Hi A I think you have pretty much received your answer from the previous posts today. But this is my penny’s worth.

If you place an empty frame with a starter strip, wired or unwired plumb central into a brood box consisting of combs from foundation the bees will have no problem building comb in the gap, but you may get one minor problem and close to what you were thinking in your post. As the bees are not governed by the depth of honey stores in the same way as brood comb, the bees may decide to to expand the honey ark on one or two adjacent frames as they start on the empty frame and the result the new empty frame having a thin honey ark. This may also result in a couple of chunky frames at the top and repositioning of the frames awkward if they needed to be moved.

As the bees seem to like 20% drone comb in the hive and if all the other frames are drawn from foundation you will stand a good chance this frame could be almost all drone comb despite it being central in the brood nest. As mentioned the bees are more inclined to position drone comb towards the outer region of the comb’s and the nest, but it’s not something I would bet on as they do have some more central and if they have to will build drone comb for England.

Personally I would say go for it as I experimented for a few years and only gained from it. Good luck.