Foundationless beekeeping

[fiftyjon]

Although I did this a few years ago I am certain that the occasional full frame of drone was produced as I can remember putting complete frames in the chicken run for them to peck out. I wouldn't have done this if worker brood was present. I'm not saying they will always make a full frame of drone, the majority of foundation-less drone frames also contained worker brood too. It may be my bees at the time (I think it was just one colony that tended to do this) were just that way inclined - all I'm saying is that it is possible.

I won't disagree with your experience either and it's something I'll have in the back of my mind as what has happened. It's part of the fascination of beekeeping to me that things don't always appear be as one would expect. Keeps you on your toes!!

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi Pargayle, I used a foundation-less mix for about 2 years so was speaking from experience*. I found the bees took advantage of the lack of foundation regardless on where the frame was positioned. I wouldn't do the mixed method again but would consider 100% without foundation if I could be sure they would make straight consistent comb.

As posted earlier I may try shook swarming a colony onto the frame type at the beginning of the thread to see what happens - unless someone posts that they did it and it was a failure!

* I did get some 100% drone frames depending on time of year and the particular colony

I have not tried all the methods available to transfer bees from one hive to another, but would expect all the methods work in the same way if you are using foundation or not.

I have worried the bees are going to do something artistic when I am asleep, but so far its not been a problem, but also know one day things may be interesting, but know it won’t be a problem as to me the rewards more than outweigh any possible problems.

I have seen frames close to 100% drone. Especially when I was experimenting similar to you. I found when you mix foundation and foundationless frames equally it can somehow confuse the bees and you end up with far more drone comb than with all foundationless frames.

 

[Tom Bick]

When fully foundationless you will find that the percentage of drone comb is often higher than when using foundation but the bees seem to build drone comb when they feel it is needed and (in my hive) convert it back to worker comb later in the year ... they seemed to, eventually, get fed up of re-modelling and either left the drone cells empty or finally filled them with stores.

Its fascinating to see what happens when you leave them to get on with what they do naturally, without any serious external influence. I accept that frames are an artificial structure but I suspect that, in a tree trunk, they would probably use any convenient adjacent structures to attach comb to. Frankly, if they didn't like frames they wouldn't use them.

Hi pargyle, not the first time this has been mentioned on the forum, but I am yet to see this or notice it in my hives. It just may be I have not seen it or my bees had not had the need to do this, but my first instinct would be why, but then I have walked away from the hives plenty of times saying why? I will be looking out for this in the future.

 

[pargyle]

Hi pargyle, not the first time this has been mentioned on the forum, but I am yet to see this or notice it in my hives. It just may be I have not seen it or my bees had not had the need to do this, but my first instinct would be why, but then I have walked away from the hives plenty of times saying why? I will be looking out for this in the future.

Yes ... I think there's lots we don't know (or possibly need to rediscover) about what bees do when left to build comb as they want. Why ? is probably going to be a regular question and possibly one that won't get a definitive answer.

I'm with you, however, on the fact that it seems to work and the minor disadvantages appear to be vastly outweighed by the benefits.

It's a great thread and I think there's going to be a lot more before it expires ...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Tom, you mentioned fishing line instead of wire.
Before I plunder husband's fishing store does it make a difference whether you use braided or monofilament line (he has both in his sea fishing box)?

 

[Tom Bick]

Both should be fine, the braided will have less stretch and perhaps be the more expensive either way best wait until he has gone out for a while

 

[Alabamaeee]

Tom,

I like the Hoffman type screw spacing in your second picture, very nice. Do you make your own frames or if not can you tell me where you can get the solid bottom bar?

I think it would be better than the usual two piece bar on 14X12 frames as I find they twist a lot.

 

[pargyle]

Both should be fine, the braided will have less stretch and perhaps be the more expensive either way best wait until he has gone out for a while

Hi Tom, Just revisited your photos ... did you use galvanised wire or stainless steel ? Yours looks a bit on the thick side compared to the S/S wire that I bought on ebay from china ... similar to this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500g-New-...ltDomain_0&hash=item53fc5183cb#ht_1590wt_1161

Although mine was 0.4mm and 250g ... the bees embedded it in the comb ok but tended not to use the cells where the wires were.

 

[Tom Bick]

Tom,

I like the Hoffman type screw spacing in your second picture, very nice. Do you make your own frames or if not can you tell me where you can get the solid bottom bar?

I think it would be better than the usual two piece bar on 14X12 frames as I find they twist a lot.

Sorry alabamaeee I now make my own simple frames and as a result the bottom rail is not available. The screws work well and very simple that reduces a couple of machining processes, but it may have been better if the screw was closer to the top rail as at first I was hooking the two heads over one another before I got into the habit of sliding the frames together.

Two screws on opposite sides of the frames would also be simpler and require less screws, but I want my frames to be compatible to hoffmans so opted for four screws per frame. I have a simple gizmo that helps with the setting of the screws. It is slightly tapered so once the screw nips the gizmo a slight tug frees it and it slips off. I can also fit plastic ends on the frames if I want to as they are 22mm wide.

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi Tom, Just revisited your photos ... did you use galvanised wire or stainless steel ? Yours looks a bit on the thick side compared to the S/S wire that I bought on ebay from china ... similar to this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500g-New-...ltDomain_0&hash=item53fc5183cb#ht_1590wt_1161

Although mine was 0.4mm and 250g ... the bees embedded it in the comb ok but tended not to use the cells where the wires were.

My frames are a mix of stainless steel and galvanized and a number of frames have heavy gauge wire more than is needed, but ok all the same. Obviously SS is the best, but providing its not too brittle. I am fortunate I have a beekeeping buddy who has a garage that has just about everything and I have made use of what I have found. I have a reel of wire right now that could keep me happy for many years to come but will return it for some of his fishing line this year.

It’s typical to see the bees leave empty cells of foundation where the wire runs through it, but soon fill them in after a couple of brood cycles.

 

[Stickyfingers]

Tom, you mentioned fishing line instead of wire.
Before I plunder husband's fishing store does it make a difference whether you use braided or monofilament line (he has both in his sea fishing box)?

There are threads on line that say they can chew though 10lb line but have no problems at 30.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks for that. I had something stronger in mind...50/60.

 

[lebouche]

Do you think that the supposed (I know you are not pushing any argument for or against) benefits to the bees are more important to the brood part of the hive? In other words is natural cell size not more important for solely the brood chamber if you are using an excluder? Also do you agree/think that foundation can store chemicals and thus should be kept out of the supers too ideally?

Still trying to plan my methodology!
Thanks

 

[pargyle]

Do you think that the supposed (I know you are not pushing any argument for or against) benefits to the bees are more important to the brood part of the hive? In other words is natural cell size not more important for solely the brood chamber if you are using an excluder? Also do you agree/think that foundation can store chemicals and thus should be kept out of the supers too ideally?

Still trying to plan my methodology!
Thanks

I'm sure Tom will be along to comment but for what it's worth my opinion:

I decided to go foundationless for three reasons:

1. Cost ... not insignificant if you buy best organic foundation from a good supplier.

2. Concerns that, even with good quality foundation, there is the potential for chemicals in the wax (residual varroacides or contaminants - I have even heard that some foundation is part paraffin wax).

3. If the bees build their own comb, solely from materials they have foraged or that I have provided in the way of syrup, then I know that they have only materials in the hive that I am happy with. They will build cells within the comb that they want to build, without influence from me as to the size, shape or nature. As far as I am concerned, this follows for both brood and honey storage areas. The bees will do what they want to do - my only addition/influence is frames and wires which. if they did not wish to use, they could easily ignore - but they haven't, they appear to readily accept the frames as a convenient structure within which they build, otherwise, completely natural comb.

There is apocryphal evidence that bees in foundationless hives are more relaxed ... certainly my bees are very well behaved .. and healthier and if this proves to be the case then I am happy, but I'm far from suggesting that it is an absolute. As it costs nothing (apart from some possible loss of honey production) then I considered it a no-brainer for my hobby beekeeping. There appear to me, to be few disadvantages or downsides.

It's a personal thing ... I know a number of people who are now going foundationless and are convinced that there are benefits ... if you are swayed, for or against foundationless, by the posts in this thread, then follow your gut feeling. Your own path in beekeeping is the one to seek - after consideration of the available information and evidence where it exists.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[lebouche]

Thanks. I was also wondering about the fishing line and whether it's food grade. Certain plastics are known to leech chemicals and I suppose that is a concern..

 

[drstitson]

If you asked Finman he'd say that most UK beekeeping practices are "foundationless".

I'll get my coat.

 

[drstitson]

"I was also wondering about the fishing line and whether it's food grade"

it's ok to be in contact with fish - which we eat.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Do you agree/think that foundation can store chemicals and thus should be kept out of the supers too ideally?

With regard to this question, allow me to add some ideas (not answers):

1. I'm told that bees don't store nectar in the supers immediately after the nectar is brought in, but that the nectar is stored temporarily in the brood nest. Shouldn't this mean that chemicals from the brood nest make it into the super anyway?

2. Where do the chemicals in the foundation come from? Sure, some of it comes from the varroa treatments, but don't quite a proportion of it come from the nectar and pollen that bees bring in, that were harvested from contaminated plants?

Particularly in built-up areas you can count on flowers having been sprayed with a variety of unknown chemicals intended to kill bugs (e.g. ants).

3. I hear some people say that they are happy with "what the bees bring in themselves" because they believe it is safe or they believe that the bees are happy with it, but the fact is that the bees bring in whatever is out there. If you're in an organically certified region, then you're safer, but most other bees will forage on flowers that have been sprayed or that grow in soil that have been treated.

4. Would the process of preparing the foundation not kill some of the diseases that may be present in the wax?

5. Do bees actually ingest the foundation, or do they simply chew it?

 

[lebouche]

"I was also wondering about the fishing line and whether it's food grade"



it's ok to be in contact with fish - which we eat.

Yes but it's not soaking in the fish for months...

 

[drstitson]

who knows what is on the surface of wire or timber either.

"Would the process of preparing the foundation not kill some of the diseases that may be present in the wax?"

the process may well kill (some) diseases. the problem is build up of pesticides and other contamination which i seem to recall some american studies showed actually built up with each round of recycling.

Remember wax is only heated to 85C during processing (nice coverage of the process in latest BBKA mag/beecraft). that is not going to sterilise the wax or necessarily provided temps high enough to degrade all extraneous organic compounds.

just take a look at the wax exchange stalls at conventions to see some of the the input material.