Foundationless beekeeping

[Tom Bick]

I bet you could have done without taking a good bit of the ceiling down lebouche. Still a good job well done. Yes that hive is full of 12 similar frames, a swarm from last year dropped into the box and in no time 12 frames of almost perfect combs and I hope they do the same when they get a 2nd BB.

 

[lebouche]

I bet you could have done without taking a good bit of the ceiling down lebouche. Still a good job well done. Yes that hive is full of 12 similar frames, a swarm from last year dropped into the box and in no time 12 frames of almost perfect combs and I hope they do the same when they get a 2nd BB.

I thought that they were in the ceiling and they were partially but then the nest went down between a cavity brick wall…that was the bugger. Then I had to take the loo out to get to them!
AFAIK that queen is still alive, it was two summers ago. 12 frames of brood like that makes me wonder why mine aren't stronger but when I think about it my stronger hive has been the provider for my weak one twice over the last year.

 

[Tom Bick]

Sorry not 12 frames of brood but all the frames similar. I wish for 12 frames of brood and given chance in time she may just do it but I will however be removing a frame and placing it in the bottom box as the 12 are now slightly on the tight side.

 

[lebouche]

I just noticed yesterday that the frames I have wired have warped. Seems there was too much tension on the wire or it tightened overnight. Hope this doesn't make for lots of brace comb!

 

[Tom Bick]

That’s not good, but I would suspect the timber has warped rather than the wire causing the frame to warp. I could imagine if the holes are not central in the frame, then this could cause the frame to warp especially if the wire is very tight. I have pretty strong hands and definitely over tension the wire beyond what is necessary and never had a frame twist or warp out of shape. If I was you I would get the frame and twist it back into shape.

 

[fatshark]

These foundationless frames are ideal for bait hives (and with the weather now about to warm up it's time to deploy them!). Seeley showed that scout bees measure the box volume by walking and short flights. A full box of foundation would interfere with these flights. I filled two boxes with 9 foundationless frames (fishing line and 1cm strip of foundation) and one manky old black frame dabbed with a couple of drops of lemongrass oil.

They were put out in the 3rd week of April and both caught swarms in the first week of May - I was away. By the time I got back they'd drawn out (near perfectly) about 4 frames.

Two more going out tomorrow

 

[lebouche]

That’s not good, but I would suspect the timber has warped rather than the wire causing the frame to warp. I could imagine if the holes are not central in the frame, then this could cause the frame to warp especially if the wire is very tight. I have pretty strong hands and definitely over tension the wire beyond what is necessary and never had a frame twist or warp out of shape. If I was you I would get the frame and twist it back into shape.

it happened to a couple. They collapsed inwards a little. About an inch or so. Bees have built the whole frame up already. I should get a pic.

 

[lebouche]

These foundationless frames are ideal for bait hives (and with the weather now about to warm up it's time to deploy them!). Seeley showed that scout bees measure the box volume by walking and short flights. A full box of foundation would interfere with these flights. I filled two boxes with 9 foundationless frames (fishing line and 1cm strip of foundation) and one manky old black frame dabbed with a couple of drops of lemongrass oil.

They were put out in the 3rd week of April and both caught swarms in the first week of May - I was away. By the time I got back they'd drawn out (near perfectly) about 4 frames.

Two more going out tomorrow

This is what I do now as well.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Worker cell size on foundationless frames

Has anybody who's been using foundationless frames for more than a season ever measured the ultimate "natural" worker-bee cell size in these combs.

The reason I ask is that there is some evidence from the US that bees benefit from smaller cell size and I was wondering if, left to themselves, they will reduce the cell size from what a foundation manufacturer would normally provide them with - 5.4mm.

CVB

 

[madasafish]

Has anybody who's been using foundationless frames for more than a season ever measured the ultimate "natural" worker-bee cell size in these combs.

The reason I ask is that there is some evidence from the US that bees benefit from smaller cell size and I was wondering if, left to themselves, they will reduce the cell size from what a foundation manufacturer would normally provide them with - 5.4mm.

CVB

5.2mm in TBHs.. iirc.. I'll get my measure out again..

 

[Tom Bick]

Just measured a comb and that was averaging 4.8 4.9 and 5 in the past when I have measured I have had larger cells and similar to foundation so they vary. There are also some cells that are very small. Personally I don't think the cell size of foundation stays at 5.4 and it will be more interesting to me what cell size people have in combs of foundation after a few brood cycles.

 

[DulwichGnome]

I have my frame 'cold' way and have seen all sizes on one comb, mostly pollen cells at the front, worker in the middle and drone/honey at the back. I now mark the front so they go back the same way. Also the outside frames tend to be drone size for suppliers and while some colonies will fill them with drone brood in the spring, not all. I've now started to note down the ones with early drones to see if they swarm first.

Mike.

 

[Alabamaeee]

Couple of questions before I have ago at foundationless…

I read in the thread that it's good to try out the techniques on supers. How many "wires" are people using in the SN1 super frames. I am thinking two horizontal just to be safe when extracting?

If using foundationless in 14x12 frames are 4 wires with the bottom one closer to the bottom bars enough?

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes better to be safe with two wires in the supers and four in a 14x12 as you describe will be perfect.

 

[pargyle]

If using foundationless in 14x12 frames are 4 wires with the bottom one closer to the bottom bars enough?

I only use three horizontal wires in 14 x 12 frames - more or less equally spaced from top to bottom - works fine for me. Never had any problems with the comb beccoming detached ... they tend to build right out to the frame sides once they have got going and it's well attached there.

 

[Alabamaeee]

Thanks for the replies. Have some spare supers so will maybe try a box of foundationless on one hive when I take off the existing heavy supers this week.

 

[ratcatcher]

a great post tom, I used to use wax starter strips when I dabbled with top bar hives, and would make my own strip from wax, but recently to get some hives up and running, I took the easy option and bought foundation sheets and cut them, Im hoping to set up a few hives in our woodland, and as an easy option when pinching any honey, cut comb will be far easier to do "on site" and the frames given straight back to the bees, I can get 6 cut combs from one commercial super, with 9 supers to a box, Im going to try running one hive using the rose hive method, all supers and no excluder, the rest will be standard commercials, on these, the brood box has a full sheet to every two frames with starter strips, some have wires, some don't,

heres how I do my supers

http://youtu.be/0loIRY0rDsM

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

What's a good source of wire? It's a fairly specialist item.

 

[Oscarmonster]

I bought 30lb monofilament fishing line off ebay.

 

[madasafish]

a great post tom, I used to use wax starter strips when I dabbled with top bar hives, and would make my own strip from wax, but recently to get some hives up and running, I took the easy option and bought foundation sheets and cut them, Im hoping to set up a few hives in our woodland, and as an easy option when pinching any honey, cut comb will be far easier to do "on site" and the frames given straight back to the bees, I can get 6 cut combs from one commercial super, with 9 supers to a box, Im going to try running one hive using the rose hive method, all supers and no excluder, the rest will be standard commercials, on these, the brood box has a full sheet to every two frames with starter strips, some have wires, some don't,

heres how I do my supers

http://youtu.be/0loIRY0rDsM

My tbh (es) just use triangular wooden strips. Period.