Foundationless beekeeping

[lukestew]

this is great stuff...got to try this out. surely get the bees to build their own wax is the way to go. just as a note nylon monofilament fishing line is pretty inert and fairly well the same stuff as the nylon frame spacers. So i would say its fine as a wax strengthener.

 

[pargyle]

Hi Tom,.

Have you, or anyone else, thought of inserting a bar, horizontally across the middle of the frame, effectively cutting the frame in half and adding some 'support' (in place of wiring)

Martin

It's worth trying but whether the bees will continue to build below a mid point bar (I assume you mean timber ?) or incorporate a wooden strip as readily within the comb I don't know ? In my book anything is worth a try ...

For me, wiring the frames horizontally (I use stainless steel wire and crimp it to tighten it) is so quick and easy that I'll stick with that. I can see that fishing line would be equally efficacious.

The bees incorporate/encapsulate the horizontal wires so completely in the comb and they hardly miss any cells when they start filling them with brood or stores I would suggest 'if it works - don't fix it' !

 

[Little John]

Good job JBM, It's surprising what you can do with a few old pallets, annoying when the dam planks spilt when de-nailing though ...

I save my old wornout grinding disks - they're 'perfect' for removing the heads of the nails, after which the planks can just be pulled free. Well - not quite 'perfect' - as they leave a groove in the wood, but that's a lot better than splitting useful planks.

Bought 3 x reels of 60lb bs monofilament at a boot sale earlier today for £2.50 the lot. Received some ribbing: "there's a bloke here going after sharks ..."
The line is a bright luminous day-glow yellow (no wonder no angler wanted it) - only hope the girls don't mind.

LJ

 

[pargyle]

LJ

I save my old wornout grinding disks - they're 'perfect' for removing the heads of the nails, after which the planks can just be pulled free. Well - not quite 'perfect' - as they leave a groove in the wood, but that's a lot better than splitting useful planks.

Nice tip for the pallet wombles amonst us ! Thanks ...

Bought 3 x reels of 60lb bs monofilament at a boot sale earlier today for £2.50 the lot. Received some ribbing: "there's a bloke here going after sharks ..."
The line is a bright luminous day-glow yellow (no wonder no angler wanted it) - only hope the girls don't mind.

Bargain of the week I reckon ! Well... that is unless your girls have some decorative taste when it comes to aesthetic interior decorations ....

 

[Dishmop]

this is great stuff...got to try this out. surely get the bees to build their own wax is the way to go. just as a note nylon monofilament fishing line is pretty inert and fairly well the same stuff as the nylon frame spacers. So i would say its fine as a wax strengthener.

Its suprising how quick they build it and I cant see why if you are doing it for cut comb that you need any stengthener at all.... I intend to cut mine with a knife.

 

[lebouche]

Opened up two of my hives today. The empty frame at the edges of the colony (1 either side) are being built outwards at an angle. Guess the comb before it want built perfectly straight. I have to say the comb management side of this isn't that easy for a beginner but it is great seeing them build. I read somewhere that modifying the frames to be thinner can be the way to go.

 

[fatshark]

Has anyone tried extracting foundationless super frames in a radial extractor? Out of about six dozen foundationless brood frames this year I've had one dodgy one with holes and brace comb. At that rate I intend to try cutting my foundation bill by 90% for supers as well

 

[Little John]

I have to say the comb management side of this isn't that easy for a beginner but it is great seeing them build. I read somewhere that modifying the frames to be thinner can be the way to go.

It's surprising how many people stick to 35mm spacing, just because that's the width of the side-bars that Hoffman frames are normally supplied with.
But 35mm is a compromise width, chosen by manufacturers between the 32mm which some bees are happier with, and their honeycombs which tend to be around 38mm.
The most sensible approach (imo) is to examine the brood combs at 35mm spacing - if there are occasional adhesions between them, then try reducing the spacing to 32mm.

LJ

 

[Dishmop]

Checked the frames of capped stores that got taken out the other day and one of the seven in foundationless..........

and I got bloody stung by a one of the bees that managed to hang onto the frame when I put it into the storage box....At least they'll die happy...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

chosen by manufacturers between the 32mm which some bees are happier with, and their honeycombs which tend to be around 38mm.

That'll be Apis mellifera Scutellata then - AKA African bees

 

[Dishmop]

That'll be Apis mellifera Scutellata then - AKA African bees

the turbo charged ones?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

the turbo charged ones?

I'll have you know they were very gentle and well behaved.

 

[rockdoc]

Does anyone think this method might help slow down the swarming instinct in a given hive, and applied at the right time?

 

[Tom Bick]

Does anyone think this method might help slow down the swarming instinct in a given hive, and applied at the right time?

I doubt it many factors determine swarming

 

[Tom Bick]

Has anyone tried extracting foundationless super frames in a radial extractor? Out of about six dozen foundationless brood frames this year I've had one dodgy one with holes and brace comb. At that rate I intend to try cutting my foundation bill by 90% for supers as well

I will this year when I get round to getting a new shiny radial extractor. I don't see any great problems provided the frames are wired, there will always be the odd one that breaks. Obviously I am working on guess work until I try it for myself but in the years I have been interested and read a great deal on the Internet about it extracting the frames never seems to be a problem.

 

[Little John]

Little John
chosen by manufacturers between the 32mm which some bees are happier with, and their honeycombs which tend to be around 38mm.

That'll be Apis mellifera Scutellata then - AKA African bees

Only if Huber kept African bees ...

1 ¼" spacing agrees with Huber's observations ... Spacing on naturally drawn brood comb is sometimes as small as 1 1/8" (30mm) but typically 1 1/4 (32mm).
www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

 

[lebouche]

Does anyone know the best way to trim down the frames? I imagine if I need to remove 3mm that means 1.5mm per frame. How can I cut this precisely?Perhaps I can mark 1.5mm but why to make such a fine cut with. Don't think I have an electric sander…also I'm considering shaking my bees into an empty brood with new frames and spacing in and placing the brood above a q excluder.

 

[Tom Bick]

If the frames are unassembled then run the side bars through the table saw. If the frames are assembled then a sharp bandsaw could remove 1.5 mm from the side bars. Personally if I made them wrong first time round I would scrap the parts and start again.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Only if Huber kept African bees ...

well, it would have been hard for him to tell wouldn't it?

 

[3bees]

Great thread, I don't know why I didn't read it earlier.

Tom, I would like to ask a couple of questions. From your initial post....

What I do is I try to run my hives double brood and when converting I simply placed a brood box full of foundationless frames under the full brood box and as the bees expanded down into the new brood box they started to build comb. When I was happy with the amount of comb, I switched the two broods over and continued to run the hive until the next spring. In early spring removed the bottom brood box and replaced with another brood box full of foundationless frames and once more after I am happy they have made a good start on the frames I switch the boxes.

1) In the spring, why do you place the second brood box on the bottom?

2) Why do you wait until it is drawn out before placing it on the top?

3) Why don't you leave it on the bottom?

4) Why don't you place it on the top to start with?

Sounds really good, I fancy trying it myself, just want to know the reasoning behind your actions. All helps to make me a better beekeeper - I hope.