Foundationless beekeeping

[fatshark]

Michael Bush writes about this in the FAQ at the bottom of the page.

Question:

Can I put a whole box of foundationless frames on a hive?

Answer:

Assuming we mean frames with comb guides, yes, you can. Usually this works fine. Sometimes because of a lack of a comb to use as a "ladder" to get up to the top bars, the bees start building comb up from the bottom bar. For this reason I prefer to have one frame of drawn comb or a full sheet of foundation in a super being added on. This isn't a problem when installing a package. Another reason for the one comb, though, is it's good insurance at getting the combs in the right direction. Another solution to them trying to build comb up, is to put the empty box under the current box so they can work down.

TB might do it for a completely different reason of course ...

 

[Tom Bick]

Great thread, I don't know why I didn't read it earlier.

Tom, I would like to ask a couple of questions. From your initial post....

What I do is I try to run my hives double brood and when converting I simply placed a brood box full of foundationless frames under the full brood box and as the bees expanded down into the new brood box they started to build comb. When I was happy with the amount of comb, I switched the two broods over and continued to run the hive until the next spring. In early spring removed the bottom brood box and replaced with another brood box full of foundationless frames and once more after I am happy they have made a good start on the frames I switch the boxes.

1) In the spring, why do you place the second brood box on the bottom?

2) Why do you wait until it is drawn out before placing it on the top?

3) Why don't you leave it on the bottom?

4) Why don't you place it on the top to start with?

Sounds really good, I fancy trying it myself, just want to know the reasoning behind your actions. All helps to make me a better beekeeper - I hope.

1- I place the empty brood box on the bottom so the bees can expand down at their own pace and when needed. Place the empty brood box on the top and you force the bees to build comb.

2- The switching of the broods is to encourage the bees to finish building comb in the BB, if not completely built, and also early preparations for the removal of the older comb in the following spring.

3- In the spring and if I want to do some comb change the bottom brood box will mostly be empty of bees and store and easy to remove. Also it will be two years old by this time.

4- By placing on the top you are forcing the bees to build comb, the empty box takes heat away from the brood and more bees required to keep the hive warm. You will also have to feed the bees as you will be confused as to why the bees are not building comb when they don't need it as they are more interested in raising brood.

Nothing all that wrong with forcing the bees to build comb it will show faster results regarding comb building but also take bees away from other duties and besides I like to work with them at their pace.

Hope this helps

 

[3bees]

Thanks Tom, will definitely be giving this a try. I agree, working with the bees, a great way to ensure regular comb change.

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks Tom, will definitely be giving this a try. I agree, working with the bees, a great way to ensure regular comb change.

I think as with most things you have to be flexible and don't be to concerned if you have to change your plans it's about trying to balance what you want to achieve but also working with the pace of the bees. I have a couple of hives right now that are only just starting on the lower brood box but also on three and four supers. If they don't fill the lower broods by say two thirds I will probably leave them as they are and won't switch the broods.

 

[Little John]

Does anyone know the best way to trim down the frames?

Personally I wouldn't trim existing frames. In order to test the waters (as it were), I'd buy or make a fistful of DN1's, then chequer-board those between your existing DN4's. Then make up some kind of spacing template - length of batten with headless nails appropriately spaced etc. to space 'em out evenly.

Clearly you wouldn't want to run a hive long-term like that - but it could be a relatively painless way of determining whether a tighter spacing is appropriate.

Then - when making new frames - trim the side pieces using a table saw or table router. Or simply use all DN1's with a spacing template ?

LJ

 

[Tom Bick]

Michael Bush writes about this in the FAQ at the bottom of the page.

Question:

Can I put a whole box of foundationless frames on a hive?

Answer:

Assuming we mean frames with comb guides, yes, you can. Usually this works fine. Sometimes because of a lack of a comb to use as a "ladder" to get up to the top bars, the bees start building comb up from the bottom bar. For this reason I prefer to have one frame of drawn comb or a full sheet of foundation in a super being added on. This isn't a problem when installing a package. Another reason for the one comb, though, is it's good insurance at getting the combs in the right direction. Another solution to them trying to build comb up, is to put the empty box under the current box so they can work down.

TB might do it for a completely different reason of course ...

Yes I have had that situation of the bees building comb from the bottom bars upwards but only in the supers and a capped comb is a good way to stop it happening. A capped frame is good to use as it will stop the bees drawing it out deeper before starting on the adjacent frames. Also I have noticed you get a lot of brace comb between the frames when you place an empty box over a full box.

 

[DulwichGnome]

I have found that while the bees will build brood comb straight and true, most of the time, they are not so good with honey comb and will build any where and how to get the stores in. I have taken to 'checker boarding' boxes above the brood, that is one sealed frame next to a new one over the two boxes.

Mike.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkerboarding_(beekeeping)

 

[Tom Bick]

They are not restricted on the thickness of the comb as they are with brood comb so it does have the potential to go out of shape. Also honey comb is sometimes built in a rush with big nectar flows and the bees can get a bit artistic.

 

[lebouche]

I performed a demaree yesterday and added a load of frames which I had modified to be 32mm with a two handed shave. Put the queen on a brood frame in amongst the new frames. Some of them might be 31 mm instead of 32. Hope that's oK.

 

[DulwichGnome]

Here are the results of new frames being put in between drawn/capped ones.

Four Rose boxes is about national and 3 supers. The old brood comb in box 3 is being back filled with honey, the new brood is worker. I removed 5 full frames from box 4 and they are drawing out drone/honey sized comb and storing honey. I hope to remove another 5 frames from box 4 this weekend.

Mike.

 

[Tom Bick]

Looks good Mike and diagonal wires/fishing line obviously works well, I suppose you have to be a bit careful with the diagonal wires over tighten the first and the frame will be out of square.

Do you use a jig to wire the frames? I have a high tech piece of kit a piece of ply with four nails in each corner of the frame to hold it square.

Ps how about a thread on the Rose hive from someone with experience of running one it would be interesting.

 

[DulwichGnome]

I suppose you have to be a bit careful with the diagonal wires over tighten the first and the frame will be out of square.

Thanks Tom, last year I suffered from a lot of cross comb when I put a empty box in. Checker boarding new with old frames for both brood and honey boxes, in a strong colony and with a flow, seems to be controlling it but it is more work.

I use a single piece of line in a loop, which keeps the tension equal, and tie on the outside of the side bar with a granny knot. It does not need to be too tight, it's just a guide. I make my frames with the grove on the outside, less places for wax moth, and the line sits in that.

Mike.

 

[Magwat]

Having followed this thread with interest, I am trying a couple of foundationless frames with fishing line. Whereas it is not normal practice to put a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest (although I know it can be done) it would presumably be ok to put a foundationless frame in the middle of the brood nest. My thinking is that there would be no physical barrier, the bees would want to fill the space & therefore draw the frame quickly and the queen could start laying on the comb when it is only partially drawn & would lay there in preference as it is nice, new comb. I can't think of any drawbacks, though I'm sure the bees can come up with something. Any thoughts please?

PS Thank you D Gnome - it hadn't occurred to me to make up the frames with the grooves on the outside!

 

[Tom Bick]

The only problem I can see in placing a frame in the centre of the brood nest is the honey ark on the adjacent frames. If the honey arks are not capped then the bees may decide to extend them at the same time as building the comb in the new frame. The result of a deeper honey arks will stop you pushing the two frames back together if you remove or move the frame but it's not a disaster and may not happen.

I have never thought about putting the groove on the outside but then I an fortunate to be able to make my frames so I have no grooves to deal with. As for wax moth I would think having the groove on the outside would create more hiding places for wax moth but then DG would have a better understanding on that.

 

[DulwichGnome]

The only problem I can see in placing a frame in the centre of the brood nest is the honey ark on the adjacent frames.

As for wax moth I would think having the groove on the outside would create more hiding places for wax moth but then DG would have a better understanding on that.

In answer to the the first, yes you need to be mindful of where you put new frames.

As for the wax moth, it's the larva we are talking about and in my experience they track across the frame and get into the grove, or where the grove meets the top bar, where the bees can not get them. With the grove on the outside, first they have to know there is a grove there to go to and then if they go into it you can see and deal with them when you inspect.

Mike.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Looks good Mike and diagonal wires/fishing line obviously works well, I suppose you have to be a bit careful with the diagonal wires over tighten the first and the frame will be out of square.

I've never thought of wiring diagonally.

DulwichGnome - is there any evidence of sagging in the middle of the frame where the line crosses?

Having followed this thread with interest, I am trying a couple of foundationless frames with fishing line. Whereas it is not normal practice to put a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest (although I know it can be done) it would presumably be ok to put a foundationless frame in the middle of the brood nest. My thinking is that there would be no physical barrier, the bees would want to fill the space & therefore draw the frame quickly and the queen could start laying on the comb when it is only partially drawn & would lay there in preference as it is nice, new comb. I can't think of any drawbacks, though I'm sure the bees can come up with something. Any thoughts please?

What you say makes sense because there would be no solid wax barrier to split the brood nest. It might make the area harder to keep warm, with a knock on effect to the brood. If you do try it, please say how you get on.

As a rider, even if a so-called "very experienced beekeeper" tells new beekeepers it's okay to split the brood area with a frame of foundation at this time of year, it isn't a good idea!

 

[Magwat]

If you do try it, please say how you get on.

I'll give one a go & see what happens. The reason I thought about it is that I am trying to move some old, dark combs out of the brood nest & out of the hive & I thought this might be a way of shifting them along a bit quicker.

 

[ratcatcher]

I had seen lots of posts about adding wires to frames, but stupidly thought they would not be needed, having checked one of my hives, this proves they are needed, at least in the brood box, in future, I'll add them.

great tip about using the groove on the outside

http://youtu.be/SLR1u0WfmdU

 

[Fatbee]

Tom - I see you keep a couple of TBHs as well - would be interested in your views between them and foundationless frames in conventional hives. I'm keen to experiment across all genres (conventional, TBHs and so on)

Do you find using foundationless frames more advantageous when it comes to ease of management (e.g more support, less cross comb etc); with the associated benefits you imply with natural wax drawing such as disease and temperment?

I have a TBH I'm still planning on populating next year (after a failed attempt with a swarm this year - think it was a cast I collected, it took off after a day and wasn't the biggest) but do wonder whether I would be better going foundationless first before taking the big leap from the safety of foundation to top bars only! Is this a half way house?

thanks

ps - great thread and having seen some of the tension occuring in other threads this has really made me think this is the sort of thread the forum is about, people willing to share experiences, thoughts and ideas that test the conventional wisdom. I think by the number of replies it has had shows just this. Will continue to follow the discussion with interest.

 

[DulwichGnome]

DulwichGnome - is there any evidence of sagging in the middle of the frame where the line crosses?

As a rider, even if a so-called "very experienced beekeeper" tells new beekeepers it's okay to split the brood area with a frame of foundation at this time of year, it isn't a good idea!

I have not seen any sagging in the middle, in fact the bees seem to cluster at that point and will draw the first bit of comb down to it. Remember to have the box level because the bees will follow gravity over you frames.

I would hesitate to put a sheet of foundation in between brood, which they need to walk round, but a void, as if a comb had fallen out of the colony, means bees can still move freely and maintain heat where needed. IMHO.

Mike.