Foundationless beekeeping

[madasafish]

I started with topbar hives - now have 4 plus 3xTBH Nucs - and have 4 Langstroths which are foundationless. Pretty painless so far - a frame stand is in my view essential for foundationless keeping as it makes queenmarking etc easy....if working on your own as I do..

Can't think of any insurmountable problems since I started in 2010 - although of course when I started it was a little daunting.

So far I have wired nothing...using jumbo frames in langs -which will never be extracted. I use the same frame stand - the frame holders are spaced in a "V" formation to accommodate different frame lengths.

I make my own frames using beesy connectors. (I have a tight budget) Both MDF and ply.

My expenditure on woodworking tools for bee equipment making is minimal..well under £100

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks Fatbee

Cross comb has never been a problem in both my TBH's and my foundationless framed hives although one of my TBH's does go out of shape slightly and I have decided it may be down to the bars facing East West and apparently they prefer North South as with my other TBH with no great problems . I am currently rotating the other hive to point NS.
I think foundationless frames are the best of both worlds especially if you like natural comb. Watching and observing the bees build comb is as interesting as the honey they produce. I noticed big improvements in my bees when I fully converted, the bees seemed more relaxed and all that comb building has to be good for them.
I like the TBH's but think of mine as a bit of fun and something nice to look at, my 2nd TBH belonged to a friend and I was looking after as he has moved away but since given it to me as he has no room for it and I am currently converting it back into a framed hive as I only want one TBH. The TBH's have taught me a great deal.
I would recommend giving foundationless frames ago as you have the kit and perhaps your TBH just for a comparison. One final note is you won't get any way as much honey out of a TBH as you would from a framed hive. There is obviously a different mind set (if they have one)with the bees as they regulate the amount of honey in a TBH but in a framed hive given an empty space over the brood nest they work extra hard to fill it and continue to fill the next and so on. So the amount of honey you would like has to be taken into consideration.

Good luck

 

[Tom Bick]

Deleted as double post?

 

[Bosleeu]

Having followed this thread with interest, I am trying a couple of foundationless frames with fishing line. Whereas it is not normal practice to put a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest (although I know it can be done) it would presumably be ok to put a foundationless frame in the middle of the brood nest. My thinking is that there would be no physical barrier, the bees would want to fill the space & therefore draw the frame quickly and the queen could start laying on the comb when it is only partially drawn & would lay there in preference as it is nice, new comb. I can't think of any drawbacks, though I'm sure the bees can come up with something. Any thoughts please?

PS Thank you D Gnome - it hadn't occurred to me to make up the frames with the grooves on the outside!

I have done it for quite a while, and find it works very well. Have never had any problems with brace comb.

With mine I always make sure the frames are placed between two fully drawn frames. They seem to be queen magnets and are normally full of eggs in no time.

It's a good thing to do if you have removed brood frames for whatever reason. Just swap them for frames with starter strips/wax rather than adding frames with foundation to the outside.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Fatbee]

Thanks for quick response - will definitely give it ago next year now I have built my conventional hives up to where I want to be and can afford to experiment. Like you beekeeping is not all about the honey for me, and not being obsessed with yield I hope it will give me more time to observe.
The point about temperament really interests me because I think my bees are reasonably calm but sometimes they can be so different for no apparent reason so if they are kept busy drawing comb all the better! Will monitor this with interest.

 

[Tremyfro]

Hi, I have only 2 hives. Very recently. I have put on honey supers, some with wired and some with no wired foundation. I have prepared the next supers but with only strips of foundation on them, for comb honey. So I will have a mix of wired and unwired to extract honey from. My question is ....Can you extract from unwired foundation using a rotating extractor, will it be strong enough....or do you have to destroy the cells by scraping away the honey filled wax and straining? This is only a question if the bees are able to do this much storage this summer but if not...then next year!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

That's pretty well what the wire's for, and I expect the same issue. I expect to have to crush those frames but others may have a better method.

 

[Tom Bick]

I have a couple of supers for cut comb but each year I extract them but in a tangential extractor some of the comb cracks but never had one break I would think a radial extractor may break one or two. You will have greater success of its unwired foundation as the thick mid rib will give reasonable support and stronger than just starter strips.

 

[Tremyfro]

I thought as much. Some of the frames, already in use in the first super, are plastic( bee bits) and are divided into 3 with plastic ribs vertically. I put unwired foundation in those. They should...I hope stand up to extraction. However, in the second supers will be strips of foundation, hopefully for honey comb. I have prepared some frames with a full piece of wired foundation also. I would like to be able to save some of the pulled out comb to use next year....hoping our girls will enjoy a head start! I am intrigued with the idea of letting them have their heads and build the comb but with a little direction from us, but it seems rather sad to destroy the comb at the end of the season. Having read lots about disease ....perhaps it is best to let them build fresh each year for honey and to do the comb changes as described in the brood box, in this post. May I say.....that the information so generously shared is invaluable to us all.

 

[Tom Bick]

I think the ribs in the plastic frames (sorry not a fan) should act in the same wires and strengthen the comb. You are well placed to experiment with different set ups.
Good luck and thanks hope you get them or some filled.

 

[Tremyfro]

I can see why too. I expect it will be difficult to open them to replace foundation. Still, perhaps the girls would do their own comb instead and we can just cut out to use as cut comb.

 

[Swarm]

I wouldn't go worrying too much about disease in honey combs and drawn combs are very valuable as a means of easy storage for the bees; less energy expenditure. Concentrate on getting some well drawn wired comb, it can be used year upon year. Frames for cut comb can be slotted between drawn comb as and when required.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I have not seen any sagging in the middle, in fact the bees seem to cluster at that point and will draw the first bit of comb down to it. Remember to have the box level because the bees will follow gravity over you frames.

That's interesting, and of course once the comb is attached to the wire it isn't likely to go anywhere.

I would hesitate to put a sheet of foundation in between brood, which they need to walk round, but a void, as if a comb had fallen out of the colony, means bees can still move freely and maintain heat where needed. IMHO.

Some are advised to do this by their mentors, with quite dramatic results. I can't see how a wired foundationless frame would have the same impact, but even so I'll let you try it first.

 

[pargyle]

As most will know I've only ever been foundationless with horizontally wired 14 x 12 frames. Never had a problem with either cross combing or distorted combs.

However, I always put empty frames for them to draw out between the last frame of brood and the first frame of stores ... I usually try to find a frame of brood with just one side filled with brood so that the filled side is facing the rest of the brood nest. At the moment I'm getting a 14 x 12 frame drawn out to full comb in about 4 days - that's in my Long Deep Hive which has the biggest colony - but the smaller colony in my Poly hive is only taking about a week to draw out a frame. LDH colony is filling the new combs with honey - Poly hive colony is filling them with brood. I think bees draw comb best when they need it ...

 

[galileo]

Tom - having read your OP and followup info from yourself and others subsequently, I decided to give it a whirl.

I baileyd one of my more ill-mannered colonies into a new box with a full set of 11 frames made up to your spec using 25lb bs monofilament in place of monel wire, tensioned with a pinned loop.

I'm happy to report that the combs were all drawn fully and occupied in 3 weeks and the colony is now noticeably more relaxed.

Thank you for the impetus.

 

[bontbee]

....Can you extract from unwired foundation using a rotating extractor, will it be strong enough....?
QUOTE]

Yes you can; I have done it many times over the years - when I got it wrong and went for cut comb when there wasn't a flow...

You need to take it very gently with the radial, particularly the first time you extract unwired comb, and be patient at slower speeds for longer. You may wish to err on the side of caution and leave a little more honey residue in the comb.

Personally, I don't use these combs for cut comb after extracting them as the comb seems to have been thickened/strengthened second time around, and becomes noticeably "chewy"!! The colour of the comb is never as attractive, either.

The upside of this is that, as the combs are stronger, they are easier to extract next time! I have boxes of unwired, failed "cut combs" out on the hives now that I will be extracting again this year.

Just wondering now, if I have actually answered your question? Although you ask about unwired foundation, I am not sure if your are concerned about extracting combs built from sheets of unwired foundation, comb from no wired foundation, ie foundationless, or unwired comb from starter strips. Sorry, if it's obvious to everyone - I think I'm getting paranoid.

If it's either of the latter two, my comments above are not directly relevant. I do have some frames with starter strips on the hives at the moment, intended for cut comb. I will try extracting some, to see if they hold up to extraction in the radial as well as combs from unwired foundation.

 

[Tom Bick]

Tom - having read your OP and followup info from yourself and others subsequently, I decided to give it a whirl.

I baileyd one of my more ill-mannered colonies into a new box with a full set of 11 frames made up to your spec using 25lb bs monofilament in place of monel wire, tensioned with a pinned loop.

I'm happy to report that the combs were all drawn fully and occupied in 3 weeks and the colony is now noticeably more relaxed.

Thank you for the impetus.

That's great galileo very pleased it has worked out for you and I thought it was just me that noticed a temperament change, some how they just seem to be more chilled I think they just like having plenty of boys around the place

If you have any questions please ask or pm if you prefer.

 

[Tremyfro]

Thx bontbee. Hopefully I will be able to save the comb for next year. Have you tried extraction from the comb built from the strips at the top of the frame yet? I am looking forward to how you get on with that.

 

[protheroe]

i dont have any problems extracting from comb built from starter strips,thats with a tangential extractor aswell.just take it easy with the speed you turn the frames.

 

[bontbee]

Thx bontbee. Hopefully I will be able to save the comb for next year. Have you tried extraction from the comb built from the strips at the top of the frame yet? I am looking forward to how you get on with that.

If the starter strips get fully drawn (ie attached to most of the frame!) I will extract some in the radial extractor and let you know how it goes.