Cost of Increase (increasing costs !)

[boywonder]

You say the proposed new hives will be at the same location as the majority of your hobby hives. Don't forget to factor in competition for forage. Doubling the number of hives on a site does not guarantee twice as much honey.

Indeed so, and that is a very fair point, which I also made to the farmer. At some point there will be diminishing returns, but without pushing that a bit, I guess we won't get a feel for where the tipping point is.

The site is in the close proximity of a main river-course, and, as such, benefits from lots and lots of un-maintained and well-watered grounds, yielding much bramble, balsam etc... hence why I think it has been my top-performing (and hence preferred) site. There is lots of diverse arable and hedgerow bounty in the vicinity also.

... though who knows how many other bees share in this.

The farmer has, for two years, planted large areas of his site with wildflower. We are on a learning curve there also (for what little difference that planting might make)... so all good grist to the mill.

 

[Poly Hive]

I think that is pretty much a non problem. The point at which returns shrink is over 40 colonies in my experience.

PH

 

[Fusion_power]

Package bees have relatively low risk of queen loss, but they are very likely to supersede about 20 days after the queen starts laying. This can be reduced quite a bit by adding a frame of sealed brood about 10 days after the package is installed. Adding sealed brood increases the potential to produce a crop of honey the same year. If your other bees are preparing to swarm, removing a frame or two of sealed brood at the right time can reduce the swarming tendency and benefit the donor colony in terms of total honey crop. The negatives to moving brood include moving pests and diseases so be sure the donor colony is disease free and has low mite counts.

 

[Pete D]

you can buy std national nucs and add them to a 14x12 brood box with new frames, it wouldn't take long to work them out as the draw and lay up the new frames.
I have a beekeeping friend who is now of an age where he wants to reduce from 30-10 colonies. Std nationals. He will sell these in spring for a realistic price, complete hives or in nuc boxes allowing him to sell the empty hives. Keep your ears open locally, there are always people looking to downsize or give up.
I have been selling 20-30 nucs per season over the last few years. The last couple of years have been hard work with poor weather for queen mating and me needing to be able to manage these when they need it with juggling my work commitments. This has led me to try a different approach for next year, I made up 25 nucs in early August and intend to take these through the winter and sell them in the spring, hopefully freeing me up but still enjoying the income that these may bring. They are in 6 frame polys which tend to overwinter well, some of them may even get split again.................there I go over committing my time again already..............
Obtaining 6 extra colonies shouldn't be too hard in spring/early summer.
Good luck with your expansion venture.

One piece of advice : more bees make more honey, not more hives
meaning for example 6 big strong colonies will make more excess honey than 12 poor/average colonies

 

[madasafish]

madasafish, thanks for the candid opinions. If we must unpick the "commercial" side of this:



Nope - he will own the hives and the bees (we have agreed a nominal £x outlay per hive) - so he transfers me the money and I buy the fixed assets, so to speak.

I will then manage the hives for a fixed monthly fee over the 12 months of a beekeeping 'year' (which we have defined as May to April). That fee is calculated based on my time (both on site and off site, for maintenance, honey processing etc.) over the season at £x per hour, plus estimated cost of consumables (e.g. frames, foundation, feed, treatments, jars, labels), plus some contingency, divided over 12 months.

To that extent, it's a fixed fee arrangement.

Even if there is no honey crop, I still get paid my monthly fee.

I will jar the honey for him. He will get a saleable product for his fee.



Let's not get ahead of ourselves, it's only 6 colonies initially (on top of the 6 hobby colonies I already have on his site). I have reckoned on 2.5hrs per week for those additional hives on AVERAGE, for 30 weeks of the year (to cover processing also)



Agreed. We will both review it next year to see if it has worked for BOTH of us, if we want to grow it more, and if anything needs tweaking (or tearing-up). I understand your skepticism. Maybe, for example, I have underestimated the time


Yes - all three. That is not supposed to sound conceited.


Yes.
(I currently have 4 poly-nuc boxes (2 occupied), and will be doubling that ahead of next season - in addition to two emergency correx boxes I have)



I appreciate the forewarning on that. I started this season with 3 colonies, went up to 11, finished with 8 (6 hives, 2 nucs) ... and will update my profile here with the 'final' 2020 opening position in the spring. As such, I have some idea of what an additional 6 hives will entail. Also, bear in mind that these new hives will be at the same location as the majority of my hobby hives, so will get inspected at the same time.

Thanks for the detailed reply..If I had realsied you already amanged so many hives, I doubt I would have asked...

 

[sipa]

As such, I would want colonies that are of a profile (population, queen fecundity) that are ready to explode in Spring 2020, reach full-size fairly quickly, and therefore give a decent 2020 crop ... all other things being equal.

Oh, and I keep my bees on the 14x12 format.

The obvious option is to put my name down for some overwintered 14x12 nucs - which I would presumably be able to take around late April.

However, the going rate for these seems to be somewhere between £240 and £290. Lol. Realllly ??!!!

You really do want to have your cake and eat it.
Given the list of desired traits and wants you have listed as your requirements for the nucs, why would asking prices in the range of £240 - £290 be unreasonable ??

A top quality overwintered 14x12 nuc if properly managed and with decent forage should develop into a productive colony very quickly. I'd be disappointed not to get 100lbs + of honey off it. Sell that for a very reasonable £6/ lb Not a bad return on investment ?

You know what they say..... Buy cheap and pay dear !

 

[boywonder]

You really do want to have you cake and eat it.

Given the list of desired traits and wants you have listed as your requirements for the nucs, why would asking prices in the range of £240 - £290 be unreasonable ??



A top quality overwintered 14x12 nuc if properly managed and with decent forage should develop into a productive colony very quickly. I'd be disappointed not get 100lbs + of honey off it. Sell that for a very reasonable £6/ lb Not a bad return on investment ?



You know what they say..... Buy cheap and pay dear !

sipa - I wholly get what you are saying.

It's like building a house. You can't have all 3 of cost, quality and speed. To get any two, you need to sacrifice the other one.

However, I can't be alone in thinking that (if you take the price of a new poly-nuc away), £200 to £250 for a half-colony of bees with a laying queen is a tad on the exorbitant side - even if you were a Bentley-driving beginner, you'd probably struggle to justify that cost... especially knowing that in the EU, similar "product" is available for half the price or less.

... though, as you also rightly say, the maths (based on a healthy honey return) can stack-up. Just a question of perceived value for money, I guess.

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[drex]

We are ripped off in uk for beekeeping equipment. I make as much of my own as possible and when I can buy from non specialist suppliers. My warming cabinet cost me about £40 and functions very well, and I was able to build in some of my own desirable features. Compare that with the prices in the catalogues

 

[sipa]

sipa - I wholly get what you are saying.

It's like building a house. You can't have all 3 of cost, quality and speed. To get any two, you need to sacrifice the other one.

However, I can't be alone in thinking that (if you take the price of a new poly-nuc away), £200 to £250 for a half-colony of bees with a laying queen is a tad on the exorbitant side - even if you were a Bentley-driving beginner, you'd probably struggle to justify that cost... especially knowing that in the EU, similar "product" is available for half the price or less.

... though, as you also rightly say, the maths (based on a healthy honey return) can stack-up. Just a question of perceived value for money, I guess.

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There is a world of difference between a hobby beekeeper selling a few nucs and a commercial enterprise that is there to make a profit.
You would be stunned at the costs involved of producing queens and nucs for sale in the UK. We sell everything we can produce... and we produce a lot. No one complains about the price because they know it is going to be top quality and we are always here to help.

 

[SWEET]

^^ This

The few I've produced this year have prob cost £500 each (in real terms) if it was an actual business.

The price BS charge me for nucs seems a bargain.

 

[Walrus]

There is a world of difference between a hobby beekeeper selling a few nucs and a commercial enterprise that is there to make a profit.
You would be stunned at the costs involved of producing queens and nucs for sale in the UK. We sell everything we can produce... and we produce a lot. No one complains about the price because they know it is going to be top quality and we are always here to help.

Hi sipa,
Is it the weather that makes it costlier in the UK, because of a shorter/unreliable mating season?

Also, I agree that the demand is enormous for nucs/queens...does this mean we have a massive churn of beekeepers (start, buy loads of stuff, have a bad year, give up)? Where are they all coming from?!

Many thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi sipa,
Is it the weather that makes it costlier in the UK, because of a shorter/unreliable mating season?

Also, I agree that the demand is enormous for nucs/queens...does this mean we have a massive churn of beekeepers (start, buy loads of stuff, have a bad year, give up)? Where are they all coming from?!

Many thanks

Near me I have lots of one or two hive beginners who don’t treat
You

 

[sipa]

Hi sipa,
Is it the weather that makes it costlier in the UK, because of a shorter/unreliable mating season?

Also, I agree that the demand is enormous for nucs/queens...does this mean we have a massive churn of beekeepers (start, buy loads of stuff, have a bad year, give up)? Where are they all coming from?!

Many thanks

The weather plays a part and can make life very difficult sometimes.
But it's really all of the hidden costs that people forget about.

To name a few...
Vehicles
Trailers
Fuel
Repairs
Insurance
Phones
Rent
Equipment
Labour
Losses (yes bees do get stolen)
Marketing
Electric
etc,etc

We get a real mix of customers, commercial, new beekeepers, returning beekeepers, and lots of regular customers

 

[Popparand]

Actually you have the basis of the 6 new colonies sitting in your two nucs. Build them up onto double broods then split into 6. Sorted. 24 frames devided by 8.

That gives you your 6 new colonies and also the two nucs.

PH

So as a matter of interest I assume that your new splits are queened by the workers from eggs/young larvae? Or do you introduce a new queen to each split?

 

[SDM]

Queens raised in full strength colonies would be better. Either raise them yourself or buy them in.

 

[Cattleya]

This year I started with 2 colonies and a nuc, and (unintentionally) finished with 5 colonies and 133 lb honey. You say you started with 3 colonies and finished with 6 plus 2 nucs. Not sure why you need to buy in any bees when you should be able to get the required number of colonies plus a good crop of honey by simply splitting your existing colonies at the right time?

 

[Poly Hive]

They can be Popperand but as said better to be headed by queens raised in full colonies as they get the requisite feeding visits.

PH

 

[madasafish]

Hi sipa,
Is it the weather that makes it costlier in the UK, because of a shorter/unreliable mating season?

Also, I agree that the demand is enormous for nucs/queens...does this mean we have a massive churn of beekeepers (start, buy loads of stuff, have a bad year, give up)? Where are they all coming from?!

Many thanks

North Staffs runs a weekend training course at Keele University. It is full every year - between 20-30 attendees.
We run free 2 hour "see bees in real life so get used to them, ask questions.." seminars at our training apiary.. 10 at a time.. 5 course - weather dependent - (washed out bar 1 in 2019)

Many end up with ome/two hives and we never see them but I get phone calls to help. if local to me...

Most appear not to treat and limp on with not many bees and not much honey for a few years .. and then silence..

Lots of hives for sale at times on ebay..

I reckon between 25 to 50% give up within 2-5 years...(swarming is usually a killer)

 

[Poly Hive]

Interesting stats.

Of the 10 attendees from my last two evening classes (yes crap numbers I know) only two have acquired bees and both ladies are doing well. One has just finished her first season and the other her 2nd. The latter lady has invested thousands in a new shed and all the toys so I really hope she makes a go of it.

PH

 

[boywonder]

This year I started with 2 colonies and a nuc, and (unintentionally) finished with 5 colonies and 133 lb honey. You say you started with 3 colonies and finished with 6 plus 2 nucs. Not sure why you need to buy in any bees when you should be able to get the required number of colonies plus a good crop of honey by simply splitting your existing colonies at the right time?

Agreed, and if it was just my agenda, that's what I'd do. However that would be tantamount to writing the year off to increase. A spring split would weaken the donor hives, and create new colonies, which will take time to establish.

Put simplistically, therefore (assuming, say I start next season with 6 strong colonies), if I split to make 12, then I might end the season with 12 strong colonies, but will only have taken a crop equivalent to 6.

(Simplistically)

This is borne out by your own experience this season (I reckon 133 lb would be your crop off two production colonies), and mine (my crop was around 200lb - essentially three colonies' worth) .... I'm sure many will dispute the sweeping generalisation here, but the fact is that increase (off stocks in-season) is at the expense of crop.

The dynamic here is just a bit different, as the farmer wants to buy the hives (and the bees), and wants to see the bang for his buck in year 1 ... and I am trying to find the most pragmatic and cost effective way of making his wishes come true.

If it were just down to me, I'd be splitting, as you say.

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