Common courtesy please

[Kevi]

As a newbie to this forum - which I find very helpful and supportive in the main -I am surprised at the tone of some of the responses to newbie questions by "more established" beekeepers. I'm glad to know I am not the only one on this forum who has raised objections to discourteous and unsupportive replies. I cannot speak for the other newbies but I accept when it comes to beekeeping I am dumb - I don't need other forum users to tell me that or imply it in their response. What may be a stupid question to one is not necessarily a stupid question to others. iF YOU CANNOT BE BOTHERED TO GIVE A COURTEOUS REPLY, DON'T BOTHER TO REPLY AT ALL - KEEP YOUR EGO FOR THE MIRROR!

 

[Polyanwood]

You are right of course Kevi. We shouldn't put each other down. There are no stupid questions.

I sometimes feel wound up by posts, however, which indicate that people have obviously got bees before they found out anything about them. I like people and I like bees too...sometimes I think, Flipping hec why did this person get bees before they learnt anything about them!!!

Still we all have to learn, so polite is good.

 

[Brosville]

"Manners maketh man" - indeed they do, but courtesy works both ways........, and the "internet forum format" also has a bearing.
To elaborate - I've been "admin" on another (different subject) forum for some years, and inevitably, the same "newbie" questions get asked over and over again - generally people are helpful and keen to help people over the first hurdles, but sometimes if you've answered a question in full for the umpteenth time, (which is there for all to read,) and someone asks the question again that has already been answered four times that week alone, - a newbie will occasionally get a curt or brusque reply that boils down to "read the bloody stickies/faqs".......... So it's a two-way thing - newbies sometimes don't display the courtesy of first consulting the body of knowledge already available by having a rootle through the forum or using "search" .........
Then there's "internet speak" - we all tend to use a form of shorthand, and not being keen on typing a lot of words, tend to shorten what we write as much as possible, which often means that all subtlety is lost, and often ambiguity creeps in - what we write that is meant in a kind and helpful way may "come over" wrongly (Smilies help a lot - use a word like "idiot" qualified by the right smiley, it can mean everything from "we're laughing with you" to "dangerous lunatic")
Last but not least, there is the temptation by newbies to reinvent the wheel
(I've no idea why, but many do...). A question is answered in great detail -an old hand with years of experience spends ages writing down how to do something, and includes pearls of wisdom like "when attending the hive, wear trousers" - sure enough, said newbie will insist bare legs and a tutu will do him ('cos he knows better).............

 

[Mike a]

Hi Kevi

I don't classify myself as an expert or even an experienced bee keeper, however I have been stunned by some of the questions that have been posted with little or no real level of detail or accuracy and vague descriptions which even a basic level of knowledge could of saved one or two blunt replies.

This forum like most other forums has a search option which can save the poster from asking a lot of these questions but all to often it is quicker to post first. I for one don't mind answering these level of questions but I would hope they would of at least made an effort to :-

1. Join an association and attend apiary meetings
2. Talk to your local bee keepers - They know the area and the subtle differences compared with 50 miles down the road.
3. Buy a few books and read them
4. Use the search option
5. Go to the right forum sub-section and go backwards through the many pages of threads looking for the headings which may contain the answers they are looking for - chances are some one else has posted the same question with a similar heading only two or three weeks before.

If at this stage you are still non the wiser then please feel free to post but included as much info as possible

Hive type
queen less or queen right
number of frames covered
level of experience
what did you see during the last inspection compared to current
Do you have a mentor if so what advise did they offer
Take a few pictures and post them if you can't describe what you see
Also has taken the time to fill in the user cp data
etc etc

Not all the above are applicable of course, but if each poster has made a minimal effort that's all most people will expect but don't be surprised if / when some one is a little blunt at times if the poster asks a question that was covered a few days or week before and posts the same identical question on two different threads and then gets upset that they haven't received the perfect all answering reply or some one was a little blunt with them...

One last thing

Send PM - this means send the person a private message this one always makes me laugh when several people then post on the thread asking for info...

 

[Drew]

......Last but not least, there is the temptation by newbies to reinvent the wheel
(I've no idea why, but many do...). A question is answered in great detail -an old hand with years of experience spends ages writing down how to do something, and includes pearls of wisdom like "when attending the hive, wear trousers" - sure enough, said newbie will insist bare legs and a tutu will do him ('cos he knows better).............

I agree with most of what you say... However I do think its possible that Newbies or even just people coming in with a fresh (even naive) view can sometimes (forgive the wording ) "cut through the bull" and provide a fresh insight on many things...... I know this is true in my world where often "experts" can't see the wood for the trees and are in many ways blind to new ideas... "We've always done it like this......", "If it ain't broke don't fix it" etc.

Although I am happy to bow to conventional wisdom WRT wearing a TuTu.....

 

[MuswellMetro]

As a newbie to this forum - which I find very helpful and supportive in the main -I am surprised at the tone of some of the responses to newbie questions by "more established" beekeepers.

Kevi, i tried to defray the responce on some on here who answered your question with what i though was helpfull comments in support of your question

the forum contains all sorts, but i find your responce by posting this thread unhelpful as we are likely to get less people to respond to newbeis questions, in what ever manner members wish, at least is is a responce. we need all responces Some of those you found unhelpful and grumpy (and they moaned at me for challenge their reponce to you) do have gems of wisdom to impart as well those polite reponces that are incorrect and sow seed of doubt.

this forum was set up in reponse to what we call the Darkside forum run by A BIG BRTISH BEE ASSOCIATION . Your coments on their darkside forum would not have been answered so helpfully and by posting this thread on the darkside forum ,you would have been banned
( because you challenged their authority)

 

[Finman]

.
after having bees 47 years i need courtesy too,.

 

[oliver90owner]

Finman,

Having bees for that long MUST mean you have a 'thick skin'

OR humping hives around for that long must mean you have 'broad shoulders'.

Both those must mean you ca put up with some 'stick'!

Anyway, you dish it out to us, so we are only returning the favour!

Best regards, RAB

 

[mscrow]

As a newbie to this forum - which I find very helpful and supportive in the main -I am surprised at the tone of some of the responses to newbie questions by "more established" beekeepers. I'm glad to know I am not the only one on this forum who has raised objections to discourteous and unsupportive replies. I cannot speak for the other newbies but I accept when it comes to beekeeping I am dumb - I don't need other forum users to tell me that or imply it in their response. What may be a stupid question to one is not necessarily a stupid question to others. iF YOU CANNOT BE BOTHERED TO GIVE A COURTEOUS REPLY, DON'T BOTHER TO REPLY AT ALL - KEEP YOUR EGO FOR THE MIRROR!

Hi Kevi

As a fellow newbie I also agree with you. I have been a member of this forum since last september, reading up on the subject for a couple of years before hand, and awaiting (still!) for the delivery of my first nuc.

Whilst I greatly value the advice, tips and sometimes even the humour (!?) on the forum I fear the time I ask my first really really daft question.

I have been a keen 'Brother of the Angle' for many years, and I have always seen it as my duty to pass my knowledge on to the younger, and less experienced. If the 'old boys' I fished with when I was a boy never did this without patience and good humour I would have possibly missed out on one of life's great pleasures (IMO!)

Some of forum members do need to remember what it was like when they were first starting, and perhaps subdue what can be a slightly superior attitude but I can forgive this as I value their advice.

 

[Poly Hive]

I just laughed.

PH

 

[tonybloke]

iF YOU CANNOT BE BOTHERED TO GIVE A COURTEOUS REPLY, DON'T BOTHER TO REPLY AT ALL - KEEP YOUR EGO FOR THE MIRROR!

please don't shout, it is very rude!!

 

[milkermel]

please don't shout, it is very rude!!

As a newbie on here but experienced on other forums I can see it both ways! One thing i have never mastered is the search options on any of the forums!!! they never bring up anything I want or 20 million non related subjects!!! I am not a numpty when it comes to pcs but have never been able to work it out!!

I am greatful to everyone who helped me out a few weeks ago when I was panicking with my first swarm and unsure what to do/what i had done wrong! I knew the answers were out there but also felt i had a small time window to get square and was unable to contact anyone by phone who had more knowledge than me. At the time I expected stick and recieved None, so am greatful to all the chaps who were better than me and not chasing after swarms but enjoying their saturday morning!!

I think as newbies we need to engage think tank first and look through the index on forums first, I find info that way and only ask after!

The other important thing to remember is that words are only a small amount of the whole communication process, so lots of room for misunderstanding when you cant hear or see the person face to face. My OH had a major fall out on line with someone, then the chap called for some reason - now they are good mates! purely because txt leaves out so much and allows for misunderstandings!

 

[Rosti]

Honestly, I go abroad on business for just a week, I trust you all to play together nicely and ......

 

[Brosville]

The other point to bear in mind is that this forum offers very good and varied FREE advice - people gladly "pay back" the help they received when they were beginners, but there is another side to it, eventually "newbie fatigue" kicks in....
A good friend of mine, who's knowledge on the (other forum's) subject is second to none got to the stage that he was so fed up with taking hours dispensing sound advice and then getting either a negative or rude reply, that he now offers no "free" advice at all, but "puts a meter on it" for clients who wish to pay for his expertise in the form of consultancy fees.......
I remember a saying about gift horses..........

 

[victor meldrew]

Having read this thread with interest,(and perhaps being guilty of the occasional short shrift type of answer) it would seem to be a good idea to include a 'Knowledge base'? this in theory should preclude an awful lot of repeat questions ?.
One of the first subjects in said knowledge base could be the suggestion and perhaps a bibliography of bee books (suggestions not recommendations )

Reason being , the type of question that generates the ill mannered response is "could anyone sell me a Queen and a Drone please?".
A similar question was asked on the forum only days ago! . The actual question was put to one of the bee supplies in the UK!.
By and large questions about bumble bee infestations (by a worried subscriber) are usually handled with tact even though for a couple of months each year ,we are bombarded by the same requests!.
What annoys , isn't the newbie asking questions , it's the nonesense questions from peeps who haven't taken a peep any bee publication either on www. or in print .
Just an observation mind !

John Wilkinson

 

[keithgrimes]

Victor - I like your idea of a knowledge base. I've found Dave Cushman's website very helpful. I think a major part of the 'problem' is people who are diving in to beekeeping without any preparation, and then realising they have a huge knowledge gap. I've done a ten week course and worked at the association apiary since early May and still don't have any bees myself, I want to wait until my confidence level is reasonably high. I was asked last week by the landlord of my local pub where he could get bees and a hive as he wanted to 'teach himself' how to keep bees.

 

[Somerford]

Having read this thread with interest,(and perhaps being guilty of the occasional short shrift type of answer) it would seem to be a good idea to include a 'Knowledge base'? this in theory should preclude an awful lot of repeat questions ?.



John Wilkinson

This is exactly what I have suggested in the thread abc & xyz in 'Forum Suggestions' and is one of the reasons I thought it would be a good idea. Unfortunately, some people seem to think it is a waste of time, but it would help out new beeks, allow our forum to be the premier UK knowledge base for beekeeping and help even us expereinced beekeepers to find stuff !


I also think the poster of this thread has touched on a subject I have long noted when reading the 'newbeek' questions. Just think to oneself - would you ordinarily repsond in such a caustic manner to someone's face, of helpfully coach them through it ?? It is all to easy to be dismissive when typing and while one might feel it is good to have a rant, one has to consider those who read it too !!

regards

S

 

[Poly Hive]

I think it is a great idea, also known as a good book and look where that gets us.

If people are too lazy to search or buy a book will having a knowledge area actually help? I would love to think so but...

I hae ma doots....

PH

 

[Haughton Honey]

It goes without saying that plenty of people now use the Internet as a resource, and very often as an alternative to buying a book.

I think that it's called progress nowadays!

Perhaps this is a good opportunity for the forum to position itself as 'the place to go' for advice and knowledge on beekeeping?

 

[Rosti]

use the Internet as a resource, and very often as an alternative to buying a book.

Common courtesy on both sides of a thread is a given!

WPC, I think you are right about the web being the 'new' book, but I am rather more cautious about web sourced data (although I do use it). Non attributable information can be dangerous, you can see that from some of the alleged misrepresentations on Wikipedia.

I also think that in most areas of knowledge if you put something in you get more out, it's not good to just accept a knowledge source without questionning, I also dont think non-attributable knowledge sources should be regarded as reliable.

If there were a knowledge base associated with say, a forum, then the validation and administration of that knowledge base may turn out to be more challenging than the original purpose of that forum. That all seems a lot of effort to compensate for someone not doing some homework ahead of asking a question?

It might also change the stance of such a forum with regard funding from 'financial support to aid running costs' to a two tier membership; free forum access but contributions welcome with an obligatory fee for 'knowledge base access'. If you are paying for knowledge is there then come back from the 'purchaser' when things dont turn out right? It is of course always the knowledge source that is wrong, never the user of that knowledge!